E24 Working as an Iranian expat in Africa & a refugee in Belgium

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Nolan Yuma and Vida Razavi talk about life in Iran, Eastern Africa, volunteering (and all the corruption involved), intersectionality, growing up in a hierarchical society, how to adjust to high-power and low-power distance cultures, and immigration. Vida Razavi has lived in 6 different countries and three continents as a refugee, student, volunteer, freelancer, and researcher.

Vida studied physics as her undergrad and has master's degrees in sociology and developmental studies. Her passion for social justice and participatory democracy led to various career moves and eventually brought Vida to her current work in an umbrella organization for gender equality.

I rely on paid subscriptions to make this possible. As a paid subscriber, you can support the show and become part of the conversation. The transcripts are free to all members to help more English learners. I encourage English learners to discuss the language and content in my English classes. I also share my expertise in intercultural competence for business English.

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[Nolan] Inescapably Foreign. Welcome to another episode of Without Borders.</v>

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I'm your host, Nolan Yuma. Today I'm here with Vida Razavi,

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who has lived in six different countries and three continents as a refugee

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student, volunteer freelancer, and researcher. So,

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Vida, how are you doing today?

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[Vida] Hi, Nolan. Very excited to be on your show. Uh, good. Uh,</v>

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today I feel quite upbeat because I took, uh,

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seven hours of sleep last night. My, uh,

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newborn baby allow that [laughter] that, uh, much sleep after long time.

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So, yeah, today things are good.

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[Nolan] All right. Oh, and then, just so the listeners know, um,</v>

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where are you right now?

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[Vida] Uh, I am in a city called Antwerp, or Antwerpe in,</v>

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in Dutch in Belgium, in the Flemish part of, uh, Belgium.

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[Nolan] Okay. And you're speaking Flemish there?</v>

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[Vida] Oh, yes. Uh, well, you have to [laughter] . Um.</v>

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[Nolan] Well, I don't know. Cause there's some,</v>

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I know some international companies you can get away with English, but.

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[Vida] Well, that's, that's a very, actually nice topic to, um,</v>

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discuss the nuances there, because, you know, if I was an expat in,

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in Belgium, uh, or I, when I was a student, even, uh, in Belgium,

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uh, I didn't feel the need to, to learn Dutch. Not at all. Uh,

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as I know, lots of expats, they, they live here for 20 years and they,

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they even don't bother. But, uh, the moment that you become a refugee,

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uh, you have kind of this, uh, uh,

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social and official, of course,

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expectation for you to definitely learn the Dutch. And,

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uh, it's not bad at all. Uh, there are some,

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some nuances that I would like to address maybe, uh, maybe sometime later.

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But, uh, yeah, uh,

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the first two years I definitely had this mental resistance to learn Dutch.

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Uh, but then eventually it happened, and I'm happy that I learned it.

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It's another language. It's, um,

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it's actually beautiful if you get to,

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to know the grammar in a sense that where the words coming from.

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And I have lots of friends that are, um, yeah.

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into literature. And every time they say something like some, some,

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some, some words that are very nice to, to, to, to the ear,

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and they, it, it's, it's good to know the meaning.

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It really makes me happy to know that, ah, I know this.

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Yeah.

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[Nolan] I understand.</v>

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Because there are some words in Flemish that you can't translate into English as

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well. But let, let's get into Belgium a little bit later.

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I think it'd be good to start closer to the beginning. Um, and also,

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just so listeners know, if you've listened to the show,

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or especially if you've read my writing,

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I can be quite politically incorrect and blunt with my opinions, uh,

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today.

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I won't be doing that on certain topics just because there are political

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sensitivities that I have to be aware of. And I just,

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just want the listeners to know that. Um, but Vida,

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you came to Belgium in 2013, so we'll, we'll get there a little later.

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And you were born in, uh, 1983 in Mashhad

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um, Iran, right? Correct.

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[Vida] Correct.</v>

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[Nolan] Or I, Iran, maybe as the American.</v>

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[Vida] You can be American or, or English, and, and, uh, you can, uh,</v>

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you can say either of those Iran or Iran,

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as long as you don't confuse it with Iraq or Iraq.

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[Nolan] So, yeah. So of course,</v>

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I think most of the listeners on this show understand the differences.

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But of course, there, there are many people, and even even people who don't,

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who know the differences.

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Middle East kind of gets thrown around as a blanket term sometimes,

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even though there are so many rich cultural differences. Um,

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and of course there are big differences between Iran and Iraq, uh,

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maybe in some cases politically not. Um, but culturally,

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so I, I'm just curious what life was like in Mashhad,

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um,

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or maybe if you want to tell the listeners a little bit more about what makes,

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um, Iran or Iran stand out from,

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from some of its surrounding countries.

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[Vida] Interesting. Yes. Uh, so, um, you can look at my, my life,</v>

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the first 17 years in Mashad.

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and Mashad is a eastern city in one of the provinces,

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the eastern provinces in Iran. Iran, um,

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to just give you an mental image is situated between, you know,

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you have the Caspian Sea on the north and Persian Gulf on the south,

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and then on the west and east you have you,

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we share borders with different countries, including Afghanistan and Pakistan.

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And then we have Iraq and Turkey and Azerbaijan on,

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on the west. Uh, so you can, yeah,

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I,

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I can tell you a lot about my first 17 years in Mashhad

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as a girl, as, uh, as the fifth child from six,

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uh, children in a big family. Uh,

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but to just, you know, make it short.

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I only remember noise and, and fights and, and, and kill us.

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And, um, it,

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but that was very one dimensional,

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dimensional life of me back then, because, uh,

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when I left, uh,

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Mashhad to university to study physics at the age of 18,

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uh, it was my conscious choice to be far from home,

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even though I could choose for a university,

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which was in Mashhad and one of the good universities.

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But I wanted to go far. I wanted to get out of the house.

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And then actually I realized that, whew,

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there are so many other dimensions to me, and I'm so happy for all those,

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uh, you know, being far for low.

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So I was never like this student who goes every month back home.

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And no, I have, I would go back home for two times a year, just, you know,

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because I had to, it was summer vacation, and it was too long, and,

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or it was the new year. I, you had to be, you know, with your parents.

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[Nolan] It sounds like even before traveling to all these different countries, you went,</v>

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you, we were almost born a world citizen. Like,

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you kind of just were bored with this drive to explore the world. Is that true.

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[Vida] Somehow, unconsciously, yes. But the, the,</v>

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the way that I look at it is because, you know, one thing about, uh,

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you know, my big family, it came with lots of chaos and,

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and then headaches.

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But few good things also came,

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which I'm very grateful for my parents, for all those good things. Um,

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few things actually. Um, and one of those was, uh,

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the fact that we had this big library at home, like the,

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the show's book, um, uh, full with, um,

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full of books and from everywhere, like from, uh,

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literatures from west to east, to to history, to, to,

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uh, Romans and novels and, um, poems and everything.

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And, uh, since I was that maybe geeky girl, uh,

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one way for me to escape the chaos from my — my,

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my home at home, actually,

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it was to seek refuge in books.

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And I, from very, very early on,

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I got to know, like,

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to to know the world beyond my home,

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my hometown and my country.

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And one of the very, very, um,

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uh,

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influencing books that actually set the paths for

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me to be here right now at this moment. And I'm very happy about it. It was,

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um, book that my mom actually bought it for me.

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It was the biography of Albert Schweitzer and, uh,

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Albert Schweitzer with his mission, mission to Africa, you know, as a,

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as a doctor in, uh,

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leaving this missionary act, you know, because back then,

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many Western Europeans actually went to back to Africa just for the

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missionary reasons, uh, to spread, you know, um,

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Christianity. But he decided, uh, at the age of,

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uh, early, uh, before 30 act, he,

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he made a vow to himself and I, he said, uh,

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I'm going to study, uh, medicine,

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and I'm going back to Africa to help those people for real.

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So he did that, and, and he meant, yeah,

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you know, as, as a 13 years old, when you read that, that,

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that story. And, um, if you, I, I always.

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[Nolan] Just to provide some context for the listeners,</v>

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because maybe not everyone knows who Albert, uh, Schweitzer is.

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So Albert Schweitzer that you to describe is some of his time in Africa.

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But he was a, uh, theologist, uh, organist, a writer,

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humanitarian philosopher, and the physician, a doctor. Um,

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and just so people get a, an idea of the time period, uh, I think it was 19,

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yeah, 1952, he received a Noble Peace prize, um,

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for his philosophy of, or reference for life. Um,

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and I'm just wondering, I, I can describe what reference of life is,

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but was there any connection with the book that you read and, uh,

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reverence for life as well?

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[Vida] Uh, not really. Um, the only thing that I know that the,</v>

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the lady who, um,

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interviewed Albert Schweitzer at his quite, uh,

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late ages actually, uh,

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she,

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she had this book actually written for, not for,

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um, let's say,

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it was a very simple narrative of what Albert Schweitzer achieved

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and what, what his mission was. So, uh, also,

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uh, maybe funny to mention that, uh,

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in 2008, 2000, uh,

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13 33, 20 years later by accident,

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I visited the hometown of Albert Schweitzer, uh,

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the Keisenberg, and on the way to, to the Alps,

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and I visited the museum house of him.

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And then there I could actually see all the works and all the,

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yeah, like, uh, the reference to life, you know, all the,

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all the, um, how do you say, the credentials that he got. And,

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and so there actu –– I came to know more about him,

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but as a 13 years old,

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that book gave me only this mental image

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that, Ooh, I want to go to Africa. And,

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uh, I'm not very proud of this. You know,

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it's been some time that I haven't been proud of this,

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but back then I had this idea to save Africans, African kids.

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And, um,

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I tell you maybe later why I'm not proud of this, uh, anymore. But,

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you know, the, the seed was already planted in my head.

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I could imagine beyond my hometown.

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And that is the influence that, you know, those books actually,

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uh, had on me. So in a sense, I wasn't born that way,

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but thanks to those books in our home. Um,

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yeah.

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[Nolan] Well, it's, it's, uh, I'm, now I'm really curious why you're not proud of it.</v>

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Cause I'm just, I'm thinking about his work and his philosophies around life.

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It's all around respecting everyone. And he talks a lot about, you know,

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how every living thing has a drive to keep on living.

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And that kind of connects us all in ways and, um,

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that we should all see each other as brothers and sisters and,

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and care and respect for one, one of one another. Um,

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which obviously in return made him one of the people back then who was very

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outspoken against colonialism. Uh, there's a lot of positive things there,

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a lot of good reasons to motivate you to go to Africa. Uh, so yeah. So what,

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what was it that you don't feel proud of now?

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[Vida] Uh, well, you are, uh, getting into this quite early, but, uh,</v>

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let's say you see, so, um, I,

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I need to give, I mean, there's a little of chronology in between.

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So I studied physics, and then I, uh,

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when I finished my studies the last year,

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I decided instead of going for a career in physics, um,

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I'm going to study sociology. I,

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I always found my passion and interest in that field,

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uh, which actually, um, made me face,

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uh, quite resistance from my parents' side. You know, in Iran, uh,

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like in many eastern societies,

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social sciences are not associated with, uh, high IQ,

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[laughter]  or, or in any, you know,

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like lazy students go to social sciences. Uh,

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and I was a physics student, and, you know, physics is the top of the science.

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And for them, it was very difficult to give up that career and then,

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then go to sociology. But I was very adamant about it.

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I proved them that I'm serious because they, they, they really thought,

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I'm not that serious about it.

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But then I remember myself telling myself that, you know, with a,

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I can have a career, I can earn an income in physics, of course,

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uh, but my passion is in social sciences.

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And I, I have something to say in physics, maybe in few years,

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but I have more to say in sociology. And that, that was my,

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um, drive to really pursue my, my decision.

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And I have no, no,

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no regrets whatsoever from that decision is even though it was not

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an easy, um, path,

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but then going back to Africa from that 13 years

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old Nolan, eh, it was forgotten. You know, I,

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I never actually consciously was, uh,

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planning for going to Africa. And in, um,

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2008, uh, I remember that, uh,

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I was working with the think tank, uh, uh, European think tank,

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uh, to somehow, you know, uh,

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cover the chapter of human rights in Iran,

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and through this medium of internet and, and think tank,

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and getting to know the opportunities,

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because I kept reading about this, uh, volunteers who go, you know,

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American, uh, like fresh students, they go, go to to, to,

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uh, Africa or Latin America to do some volunteer work.

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And up to that moment, I never planned,

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or I never even, I, I have forgotten about, you know, my,

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my dream about going to Africa.

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But once this opportunity came, I mean, showed him,

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it's off to me. And I, I was like, I, I, I,

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I, I, I remember that I was not even sure.

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I just thought it's, it's, uh, you know, it's, um,

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it's a shoot in the dark. Uh, but then when it got real,

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and I could get this, um, opportunity, um, I should explain that also,

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that it was, uh, you know, to, to become a volunteer in an, uh,

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orphanage, uh, house, uh, in, in Kenya,

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in Nairobi, actually, there is this concept of, uh, Thomas,

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Bernardo house is a very British concept of orphanages. Like,

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instead of just putting all the children together in a one big

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dorm, they build up cottages, like real houses.

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And they put 4, 5, 6 children together with one mama. It is,

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mama is also a staff of the, of the, of, of the orphanage.

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And so the children actually were sisters and brothers, and they had home.

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So when they go to school and they come back, you know, to the campus,

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to that big campus, they go to their hog, and the mama during the day,

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cooks for the wash, their, uh, you know, do the laundry. And so it's a very,

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um, home concept kind of orphanage. Anyway,

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I got the chance to, to, uh, to, to do that. And I,

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and I — So that was my ticket to Africa.

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And I remember then I build up, uh,

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some networks I could well, uh,

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search for more jobs. And as a junior researcher,

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sociology was my field, and I got lucky. But then

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why I'm not proud of that, because the idea,

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just imagine how arrogant I was to think that

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I have this solution,

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or I have this, uh, tool that I can help,

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you know,

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and I'm here to help people because they're not able to help themselves.

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It took me four years to realize that arrogance in me,

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because the Africa that I knew before

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I go there, it was just my, you know,

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imagination or my,

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my idea of Africa and all the things that normally it's projected in,

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in media for it, you know, like, you know, um,

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it was very different from the Africa that I, um,

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got to, to, to know, and all those people,

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brilliant, hardworking, and,

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um, and expert enough, like, you know,

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because, you know, Nolan, let's face it, uh,

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let's just be, uh, honest with each other.

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That's as, as a white person,

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and I'm not white. I'm, I'm yellow. I don't want to get into shadism,

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but, but it is true. I am, I'm, I'm yellow.

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But in the context of Africa, uh,

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I didn't deserve that prestige or privilege.

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There are many people who could do better job than me.

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And I.

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[Nolan] Have had How do you think this, this privilege you received,</v>

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uh,

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what was it from the organization that kind of put you on this pedestal

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because of the color of your skin or because of your educational background?

301

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Or were it the people there that kind of put you in onto this pedestal?

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[Vida] Well, it's interesting that you, um,</v>

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you mentioned this because then we can really, uh, explain it. Uh,

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well, that indeed it was not the organization. It, you know,

305

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uh, being white, being bright,

306

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um, is associated with pureness, with, with, with knowledge, with,

307

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uh, being smart, being, knowing, being ethical, even.

308

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So you somehow, in that context,

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you are immediately appreciated multiple times

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than, than than the rest.

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And I had somehow ethical issue with, with,

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with that's, um, attitude, with that mentality.

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Uh, I give you another example. Like,

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I remember I traveled to India just as tourist.

315

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And in one of the tourist sites, I,

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I saw this family and they, they wanted to take a picture with me. I was nobody.

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I was nobody.

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And that really made me sad,

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just because of the color of a skin, you are

320

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somehow becoming superior and,

321

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and desired. And I have,

322

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I still have that, that that issue with, with, with this mentality. And,

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um, funny enough, so in Africa, when, uh,

324

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people meet me, like, um, [laughter] , it's,

325

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it's very interesting when, you know, when we, we start talking first day,

326

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take me as, as a western, like American or European, and they ask me,

327

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where are you coming from? And I say, from Iran. And, um,

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without exception, without exception,

329

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every time that I mentioned my nationality,

330

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I immediately, um, uh,

331

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noticed a change in the attitude. Yeah.

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Because from the expectation that I was a western

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American and the, the, you know,

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the privilege that I could own with that,

335

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with that, um, perception or the fact, actually, I,

336

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I am now not, you know, that is, yeah,

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that is the annoying thing that really bothered me.

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Not because I was disappointed in their,

339

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how they treated me afterwards, but that, that I find,

340

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I found it's very sad that our societies and I come from Iran,

341

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believed with social status. We,

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we lived with the fact that we are not a class society, I mean class like,

343

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um, sorry, cast society. But

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our societies are very much, um,

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classified in and hierarchical in a sense that how

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you socially, um,

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deserve treatments based on the social status that you have.

348

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And, but these are maybe, you know,

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the fact that I'm not proud of the fact that I was arrogant enough to think that

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I am the one who saves Africa.

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And then afterwards I realized that, wow, these, uh,

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locals, they, they know better things.

353

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They have this tested knowledge of how to deal with.

354

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And nowadays there are so many, uh,

355

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Africans who come to West, they get educated,

356

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they get all the tech technicalities and expertise, and they go back.

357

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We don't need yellows and whites, you know, to come and, you know,

358

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rescue or solve the problems. Uh,

359

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of course in that sense. Yeah. I'm, I'm getting a bit further from, uh.

360

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[Nolan] No, no. We'll, just skipping back. Cause as you said,</v>

361

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we kind of jumped ahead with the chronology here,

362

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but sometimes when we have certain themes, those themes don't, uh,

363

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sit in one time and place. Right. We kind of have to jump around. Um,

364

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but then just to bring it back a little bit with, um,

365

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the idea of growing up in a society where there, there is a hierarchy,

366

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um, of course in Belgium it exists much less than in Iran. Right?

367

00:24:43.510 --> 00:24:47.890

Um, and how was it for you? Just be,

368

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you said you were the fifth child

369

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So you also fell somewhere on a hierarchy within your.

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[Vida] Family. Absolutely.</v>

371

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[Nolan] [laughter] , right? Uh, so I'm,</v>

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I'm a little bit curious about that because I'm sure a lot of Westerners, uh,

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when, when they think about when you were born, it,

374

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it doesn't have as much of an effect on how you're raised.

375

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But in many countries, in Iran, in China as well, um,

376

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it, it really affects your absolutely.

377

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Role in the family and what you need to do. So I was kind of,

378

00:25:14.330 --> 00:25:16.970

what was your role as the fifth child.

379

00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.220

[Vida] Who, uh, you need to see that in the light of,</v>

380

00:25:23.360 --> 00:25:27.740

you know, you are the fifth child, so you have four,

381

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um, siblings older than you, and you are also a girl.

382

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So we were two, two, um, four girls and two, two boys.

383

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And, uh,

384

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unfortunately that's that division. Uh, well,

385

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my brothers enjoyed much privilege and much,

386

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much freedom compared to us as, as, as girls.

387

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And that that always bothered me too, you know? Um,

388

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and then you have, as a fifth child, I'm,

389

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I'm also into the psychology of number of children, um,

390

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because apparently it has big effect on your character and personality

391

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and which, uh, which number you are in, in how many, uh, children.

392

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And I had this, um, younger sister than me four years.

393

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And, uh, when I look back, I realized that, um,

394

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yeah, I was this unseen,

395

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unheard, uh, child, even though,

396

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even though I should,

397

00:26:39.630 --> 00:26:44.550

I should admit that because of my look and my

398

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good grades, and I was this good student,

399

00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:52.970

I was seen more than my other siblings in a sense.

400

00:26:53.520 --> 00:26:54.690

Okay. But I hope.

401

00:26:54.690 --> 00:26:58.770

[Nolan] But that kind of breaks the general norm behind that, though. Like, normally,</v>

402

00:26:58.770 --> 00:27:01.250

would you be less seen as a fifth child in Iran?

403

00:27:01.400 --> 00:27:04.690

[Vida] Absolutely. Absolutely. Your lost child, I mean,</v>

404

00:27:04.690 --> 00:27:09.210

they say fifth child between six is a lost child. Anyway, [laughter] .

405

00:27:10.060 --> 00:27:14.130

So somehow I, I, I got found again,

406

00:27:14.590 --> 00:27:17.170

but in a sense, no, yeah, you know, this,

407

00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:22.820

you are lost in a family of eight, you know, like, uh, you,

408

00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:23.860

you definitely,

409

00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:28.750

because your parents don't have the time or energy to even listen to you or

410

00:27:28.750 --> 00:27:31.310

to see you to, or notice you, it's just

411

00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:37.790

impossible, you know, physically and mentally. So I was mostly,

412

00:27:38.760 --> 00:27:43.700

um, in contact with my, let's say my older, um, sister. And she,

413

00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:48.420

she, she still has this mother kind of feeling towards me, because when,

414

00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:53.310

when she was seven, I was born, so when I was, I dunno,

415

00:27:53.310 --> 00:27:56.430

four or something, she was 11, and she was into this, you know,

416

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mother role playing like, you know, playing house, you know, with your real,

417

00:28:01.340 --> 00:28:06.030

real sister. And, um, she still has that, that,

418

00:28:06.030 --> 00:28:08.030

that feeling towards me. And I, I,

419

00:28:08.340 --> 00:28:12.990

I think she expects some sort of loyalty from me because

420

00:28:13.340 --> 00:28:18.070

back then she, uh, she yeah. Mothered me somehow.

421

00:28:18.470 --> 00:28:21.190

[Nolan] [laughter] . Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean,</v>

422

00:28:21.190 --> 00:28:25.190

I think there are pros and cons when having a society that is more,

423

00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:29.230

has more of a hierarchy in then societies that have more equal.

424

00:28:29.250 --> 00:28:32.430

You can also look at power distance in these cases, right?

425

00:28:32.720 --> 00:28:37.070

In business structures, which cultures might have greater power,

426

00:28:37.390 --> 00:28:40.070

distance in which have lesser power distance. Now,

427

00:28:40.180 --> 00:28:43.190

you've lived in so many countries, uh,

428

00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:47.710

so you've obviously had to had to deal with these different ways of

429

00:28:47.710 --> 00:28:49.830

negotiating these different power distances.

430

00:28:50.120 --> 00:28:52.950

So I'm kind of wondering from your experience,

431

00:28:53.270 --> 00:28:57.270

which countries had the largest power dis, um, distance,

432

00:28:57.270 --> 00:29:01.750

and which had the smallest, cuz I know it can often lead to conflicts,

433

00:29:01.830 --> 00:29:05.750

right? For instance, if someone from a Scandinavian country,

434

00:29:06.040 --> 00:29:10.510

or like Holland where there is no power distance, right?

435

00:29:10.510 --> 00:29:11.390

Where you, the,

436

00:29:11.390 --> 00:29:16.070

the person who's several degrees down can have a meeting with the CEO and

437

00:29:16.070 --> 00:29:18.870

email them directly, no problem. Right?

438

00:29:18.870 --> 00:29:21.350

And that sounds all well and good,

439

00:29:21.570 --> 00:29:23.550

but then sometimes when these people from a very,

440

00:29:23.550 --> 00:29:28.190

like this equal or small power distance society go to work

441

00:29:28.190 --> 00:29:30.190

somewhere where there is more of a hierarchy,

442

00:29:31.060 --> 00:29:36.030

then those leaders might seem very incompetent because they're not

443

00:29:36.030 --> 00:29:39.510

showing that they're the leader, right? And then the people just feel like,

444

00:29:39.510 --> 00:29:42.800

okay, why isn't my boss telling me what to do? Why am I,

445

00:29:42.800 --> 00:29:45.680

why am I not getting clear instructions? Right? So there,

446

00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:48.480

there's a balance there. So it's, yeah. What, what are some of your experiences?

447

00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:53.000

[Vida] That's absolutely true. Nolan and I have experienced this, what,</v>

448

00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:56.880

what you just mentioned, it's what I've experienced throughout this years,

449

00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:59.720

this disparities between how I,

450

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.840

I'm talking about the workspace, because you gave an example about work,

451

00:30:05.140 --> 00:30:10.030

but that's true. Um, to, to answer your first question,

452

00:30:10.170 --> 00:30:14.430

the least, uh, among the countries that I lived in the least, uh,

453

00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:19.060

was for me, indeed, uh, Belgium, uh, Germany,

454

00:30:19.970 --> 00:30:24.540

I didn't have real working experience there. It was,

455

00:30:24.630 --> 00:30:28.730

um, mostly, um, yeah, entrepreneurial.

456

00:30:29.100 --> 00:30:32.130

So it's different from working for an organization.

457

00:30:32.670 --> 00:30:35.750

But Belgium definitely, although,

458

00:30:36.070 --> 00:30:39.030

although I should mention that, uh,

459

00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:41.480

you have always these

460

00:30:43.310 --> 00:30:47.600

outliers that they, you know, so we are talking about average,

461

00:30:47.690 --> 00:30:52.400

we are talking about 68% of the population, which indeed in Belgium,

462

00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.680

you don't have that. You can,

463

00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:58.340

you can just call or address your, your,

464

00:30:58.340 --> 00:31:02.980

your boss with their small today or, um, uh, first name. And,

465

00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:08.060

and it's perfectly fine. They actually prefer that way. You go to Africa,

466

00:31:08.060 --> 00:31:11.580

you go to Iran, and, and then the, the the yeah.

467

00:31:11.580 --> 00:31:15.020

Address them with their first name, you will be doomed. I mean,

468

00:31:15.450 --> 00:31:19.140

they immediately get offended by that. And it was.

469

00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:23.700

[Nolan] Africa, many African countries. Was it similar to an Iran with the power,</v>

470

00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:25.340

distance and hierarchy or lesser?

471

00:31:25.730 --> 00:31:30.380

[Vida] Yes, yes. Yes. Because we, all of them are very,</v>

472

00:31:30.510 --> 00:31:34.780

uh, masculine societies in a sense. And, um,

473

00:31:35.010 --> 00:31:37.740

this masculinity actually is, uh,

474

00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:42.420

brings its own power dynamic between, and at the same time,

475

00:31:42.420 --> 00:31:46.820

it's very, um, respect based in the society,

476

00:31:47.040 --> 00:31:51.660

you know, where respect gets suddenly this very important,

477

00:31:52.630 --> 00:31:56.700

uh, value in the relationships that I'm older than you,

478

00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:59.540

you need to respect me. I am a man, you need to respect me.

479

00:31:59.830 --> 00:32:04.460

So it can go in all, all, um, all uh,

480

00:32:04.610 --> 00:32:08.630

directions, uh, in Iran, um,

481

00:32:09.430 --> 00:32:10.990

hierarchy, you know,

482

00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:15.960

because in Iran you get treated based on

483

00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:20.930

the social status that you have. And, um,

484

00:32:21.360 --> 00:32:24.420

it's, it's just that you,

485

00:32:24.420 --> 00:32:28.460

you after sometimes because you get treated very

486

00:32:28.770 --> 00:32:32.740

unfairly, uh, based on, you know, if you are not rich,

487

00:32:32.740 --> 00:32:35.780

if you are not a doctor, if you are not someone important,

488

00:32:36.410 --> 00:32:41.190

then you start focusing on how you represent

489

00:32:41.470 --> 00:32:45.670

yourself to earn that good treatment. So you have,

490

00:32:46.150 --> 00:32:50.350

normally in Eastern, you know, in Iran we have this,

491

00:32:51.520 --> 00:32:53.350

um, um,

492

00:32:54.340 --> 00:32:57.930

imagine a context that you inside your house

493

00:32:59.030 --> 00:32:59.863

can,

494

00:33:00.110 --> 00:33:04.180

can do something that outside is not allowed.

495

00:33:04.220 --> 00:33:06.900

Inside your house perfectly. Yeah, you can,

496

00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:08.580

but outside you are not allowed.

497

00:33:09.290 --> 00:33:13.700

And then you start developing this, um,

498

00:33:14.180 --> 00:33:18.780

distinction between, am I inside or am I outside? How should I represent my,

499

00:33:18.870 --> 00:33:22.140

my, so you get self-conscious when you are outside of the house.

500

00:33:22.390 --> 00:33:26.140

[Nolan] So you have like an inside personality and an outside personality.</v>

501

00:33:26.140 --> 00:33:30.580

[Vida] Absolutely. Like, uh, you know, it's like you,</v>

502

00:33:31.280 --> 00:33:36.260

you have to be constantly cautious outside that am I, you know,

503

00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:42.420

am I confirming what others expect me to,

504

00:33:42.550 --> 00:33:47.060

uh, to be or to do? And that is, um, oh,

505

00:33:47.420 --> 00:33:50.580

tiring. That's really tiring. These things I,

506

00:33:50.930 --> 00:33:54.580

I realized when I was, uh, out of Iran, of course,

507

00:33:54.580 --> 00:33:58.740

when you are in the system, you somehow know it,

508

00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:02.860

but you don't really, you are not aware of it, you're not conscious of it.

509

00:34:03.090 --> 00:34:05.780

So, but the moment that you take distance,

510

00:34:06.170 --> 00:34:10.320

enough distance from that society out of the system,

511

00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:15.070

then you are able to see the system. So, whew. That was, you know,

512

00:34:15.070 --> 00:34:19.350

especially in, in the reference to another culture, which is a bit, you know,

513

00:34:19.590 --> 00:34:24.420

contrasting or, or different. But then, yeah, um,

514

00:34:24.990 --> 00:34:29.310

hierarchy, I, I experienced it in Africa a lot. I remember,

515

00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.110

uh, I, I was giving a workshop and, uh,

516

00:34:33.160 --> 00:34:37.270

in that workshop there were men much older than me,

517

00:34:37.270 --> 00:34:41.170

women older than me. And, uh, I normally,

518

00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:46.910

uh, well, I normally look much younger than my,

519

00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:50.110

my real age. On top of that,

520

00:34:50.810 --> 00:34:55.470

put me in a context where I’m a girl who is

521

00:34:55.470 --> 00:35:00.340

perceived as a little girl and standing in front of all these, you know,

522

00:35:01.160 --> 00:35:03.580

men and, and much older than me.

523

00:35:04.160 --> 00:35:08.700

And I immediately noticed that they're not going to listen to me.

524

00:35:09.430 --> 00:35:13.830

Uh, it was a very obvious like, uh,

525

00:35:14.220 --> 00:35:18.670

legitimacy issue that you are not legitimate enough to,

526

00:35:18.720 --> 00:35:21.790

to stand here because you are much younger than, and was that.

527

00:35:22.130 --> 00:35:24.790

[Nolan] All the African countries? Because of course, I mean,</v>

528

00:35:24.790 --> 00:35:29.550

Africa has the most languages out of any continent and just

529

00:35:29.550 --> 00:35:32.950

so many rich cultures that are very distinct. So did,

530

00:35:32.950 --> 00:35:37.280

did you notice any differences with how the men, um,

531

00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:40.840

were valued as society or how the men treated you, uh,

532

00:35:40.840 --> 00:35:43.840

from the different countries that you lived in, in Africa?

533

00:35:44.090 --> 00:35:48.920

[Vida] Uh, well, I sh I should only talk about the African countries where I lived.</v>

534

00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:53.560

It was mostly eastern, Eastern, uh, Africa, uh, like, uh, Kenya,

535

00:35:54.240 --> 00:35:58.280

Zambia, and Ethiopia. Um, but

536

00:36:00.070 --> 00:36:04.080

I can say in terms of how I was treated by, you know,

537

00:36:04.080 --> 00:36:08.550

these gender roles, um, it's difficult. Nolan,

538

00:36:08.570 --> 00:36:11.110

you know why? Because at the same time,

539

00:36:11.260 --> 00:36:16.090

I had this layer on top of me as an expat with a brighter color,

540

00:36:16.510 --> 00:36:21.250

you know? So it's difficult to really know that,

541

00:36:21.250 --> 00:36:23.570

was it because of, you know,

542

00:36:23.570 --> 00:36:28.090

if you get the same treatment as an a,

543

00:36:28.160 --> 00:36:32.970

a girl with similar, similar, um, let's say situation.

544

00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:35.770

Uh,

545

00:36:35.770 --> 00:36:40.640

but there were moments that I definitely knew that is because,

546

00:36:40.640 --> 00:36:45.460

you know, it was because I was a girl and I was young.

547

00:36:45.990 --> 00:36:50.850

So this concept of respect in,

548

00:36:51.740 --> 00:36:55.370

in our countries and in African countries where I experienced,

549

00:36:56.050 --> 00:36:59.180

played a big role in, yeah,

550

00:36:59.520 --> 00:37:04.180

relationships that you had with, uh, with, with your coworkers or,

551

00:37:04.180 --> 00:37:05.940

or the people that you work with.

552

00:37:07.190 --> 00:37:11.120

I am trying to think a bit harder and see if

553

00:37:11.790 --> 00:37:16.450

there was an, yeah. Um, like I always say.

554

00:37:16.450 --> 00:37:19.370

[Nolan] And did you feel like your experiences were quite similar in all,</v>

555

00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:23.650

in all three of those countries, when, when it comes,

556

00:37:23.650 --> 00:37:24.970

how you were treated as a woman?

557

00:37:24.970 --> 00:37:29.250

[Vida] Yeah. Uh, you know, uh,</v>

558

00:37:29.250 --> 00:37:33.870

what comes to my mind is maybe it's good

559

00:37:34.130 --> 00:37:38.200

for your listeners to know that I'm very much annoying

560

00:37:38.930 --> 00:37:42.520

in answering questions in a very straightforward way,

561

00:37:43.010 --> 00:37:46.320

because there's context to it. You know,

562

00:37:46.390 --> 00:37:49.880

this intersectionality of you,

563

00:37:50.900 --> 00:37:54.080

you know, you have your gender, you have your social status,

564

00:37:54.100 --> 00:37:58.920

you have the color of your skin, you have your, you know, which we,

565

00:37:59.250 --> 00:38:03.720

we say race, let's say here. Uh, you have your, uh,

566

00:38:03.950 --> 00:38:07.360

career, your work, you know, your, the, the position you are,

567

00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.360

you are standing all these

568

00:38:12.390 --> 00:38:17.360

shape the expectations of people from

569

00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:20.360

me and the perception, their perception as well.

570

00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:24.320

And then in return, I get how they treat me.

571

00:38:26.100 --> 00:38:26.933

Was I,

572

00:38:27.740 --> 00:38:32.690

if there was an African girl exactly the same as

573

00:38:32.690 --> 00:38:35.680

me, same education, same social, same,

574

00:38:35.700 --> 00:38:37.760

but with a different shade of skin,

575

00:38:38.990 --> 00:38:42.910

would we be treated equally? That I doubt

576

00:38:44.410 --> 00:38:48.040

we couldn't really do justice to, to the.

577

00:38:48.230 --> 00:38:51.080

[Nolan]. Yeah. I was just wondering about your personal experience.</v>

578

00:38:51.080 --> 00:38:52.640

I just brought up being a woman, cuz you, you were,

579

00:38:52.640 --> 00:38:53.960

you were talking about that earlier,

580

00:38:54.500 --> 00:38:56.960

but now you bring up something interesting and I,

581

00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:59.800

I've just noticed it so far in our conversation,

582

00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:04.680

you do provide a lot of context, which is also a, a cultural thing, right?

583

00:39:05.110 --> 00:39:09.680

I think, uh, a lot of westerners, when they're talking to people from the east,

584

00:39:09.830 --> 00:39:12.800

they might be thinking, why aren't you getting to the point like, this is,

585

00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:16.080

this is not the question I asked. And then on the flip side,

586

00:39:16.080 --> 00:39:17.960

you have people from the east with Westerners,

587

00:39:17.960 --> 00:39:20.560

and they think these westerners suck at listening.

588

00:39:20.560 --> 00:39:25.120

Why aren't they taking time to listen to the context? Because you can't,

589

00:39:25.220 --> 00:39:28.880

you can't understand the point without the context.

590

00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:30.840

How has that been for you in Belgium?

591

00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:35.800

Do you feel like people aren't listening to you sometimes when you have

592

00:39:35.800 --> 00:39:36.640

a presentation?

593

00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:41.400

Or have you had to adapt your presentation style to get to the point quicker?

594

00:39:41.990 --> 00:39:45.920

[Vida] Well, and, uh, ouch, because that, that, no, no, no. I was like.</v>

595

00:39:46.190 --> 00:39:49.800

[Nolan] I, I think, I think it's a amazing good to provide context, right?</v>

596

00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:53.080

It's just depends, amazing depends on the culture. And this is without borders,

597

00:39:53.080 --> 00:39:56.200

right? So I love to have people who, you know, as a Westerner

598

00:39:56.310 --> 00:39:57.720

I just get right to the point,

599

00:39:57.900 --> 00:40:00.800

and of course there are variations in the west as well, right? Like in,

600

00:40:00.830 --> 00:40:03.400

I know in Germany, if you have a presentation,

601

00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:07.960

people expect a lot more about theory first and then the principles.

602

00:40:08.250 --> 00:40:12.800

Whereas in America it's like principles first and then theory, right?

603

00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:16.880

So it's not, it's not just the west or the east. It can depend on each country.

604

00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:18.640

But I'm just wondering about your experience.

605

00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:22.560

[Vida] Yeah, no, it's, it's really amazing that how you put it that way because, uh,</v>

606

00:40:23.230 --> 00:40:26.800

I didn't know that's a thing. I, I really thought it's,

607

00:40:26.830 --> 00:40:31.680

it's me with my very complicated and complex way

608

00:40:31.680 --> 00:40:36.160

of looking at things. But I didn't know there is a cultural, uh,

609

00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:40.720

factor in that. And Very interesting, very interesting.

610

00:40:41.180 --> 00:40:45.960

And, uh, I said, ouch. Why? Because it reminded me all of,

611

00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:50.600

all those moments that I was trying so hard during workshop, for example,

612

00:40:50.650 --> 00:40:53.230

to just, you know, uh,

613

00:40:53.650 --> 00:40:56.430

get into the point with context.

614

00:40:56.430 --> 00:41:01.210

Because when you put people in the context, and, and,

615

00:41:01.210 --> 00:41:05.090

and, and my workshops also are not that, you know,

616

00:41:05.200 --> 00:41:07.650

like pure technical or scientific,

617

00:41:07.680 --> 00:41:12.450

it's mostly about issues where not do you know

618

00:41:12.740 --> 00:41:16.610

if, if you don't provide a nuanced answer, you could be easily wrong.

619

00:41:17.570 --> 00:41:21.440

So in that sense, when, uh, it's,

620

00:41:21.440 --> 00:41:25.200

it's funny because multiple times I've, I've,

621

00:41:25.750 --> 00:41:29.360

I've explained, like, I, I got a question from the crowd,

622

00:41:29.360 --> 00:41:34.320

and then I explained it for like 10 minutes, and then this, this guy, uh,

623

00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.460

stands up, says, yeah, but, okay, you didn't answer my question. I,

624

00:41:38.690 --> 00:41:43.620

I was answer your questions and, and just, you know,

625

00:41:43.750 --> 00:41:47.540

um, I have that issue at home too with my, with my husband.

626

00:41:47.710 --> 00:41:52.620

My husband is Belgian, and it's really interesting in the beginning, we,

627

00:41:52.630 --> 00:41:55.860

we end up just not having a conversation,

628

00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:58.780

just avoid the fact that when he asked me a question,

629

00:41:58.850 --> 00:42:02.980

I have to give all this background, you know, and context,

630

00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:05.940

and he would get, I, I think he,

631

00:42:05.940 --> 00:42:10.500

he easily got bored with it and said, what? You didn't answer [laughter] .

632

00:42:11.350 --> 00:42:14.180

So it's, I I,

633

00:42:14.180 --> 00:42:17.340

I definitely need to look that up because I didn't know it's a cultural thing.

634

00:42:17.370 --> 00:42:18.170

What.

635

00:42:18.170 --> 00:42:21.340

[Nolan] I think, I think it's always very important for people to be aware of it,</v>

636

00:42:21.340 --> 00:42:25.820

because that's sometimes a problem in our world. People think like, okay,

637

00:42:25.820 --> 00:42:28.420

why isn't Vida getting to the point? And then they blame you as a person.

638

00:42:28.420 --> 00:42:30.220

But then once they understand, okay, no,

639

00:42:30.220 --> 00:42:33.220

it's a little bit more of a cultural thing and you realize, okay, no,

640

00:42:33.680 --> 00:42:37.620

I'm the one who needs to be a better listener right now and take the time to

641

00:42:37.620 --> 00:42:41.660

understand the context rather than just like, need to get the point right away.

642

00:42:41.960 --> 00:42:43.340

But then on the flip side, it,

643

00:42:43.450 --> 00:42:47.340

like someone from the east going to the west need to realize, okay, I,

644

00:42:47.370 --> 00:42:49.500

I don't need all the context right now.

645

00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:54.300

I need to let this guy just say made points and maybe later

646

00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:55.340

provide the context.

647

00:42:55.610 --> 00:42:59.620

[Vida] Yeah, exactly. I think, um, as long as the communication is clear,</v>

648

00:43:00.470 --> 00:43:04.980

um, there is no hard feelings because yeah, who knows. Um.

649

00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:09.700

[Nolan] Now I do think we have quite a bit of context now from some of your experiences.</v>

650

00:43:10.270 --> 00:43:10.620

Um,

651

00:43:10.620 --> 00:43:15.300

and you mentioned that when you were working as a freelancer in,

652

00:43:15.430 --> 00:43:17.820

uh, Kenya and Zambia and Ethiopia,

653

00:43:18.450 --> 00:43:22.900

that you were using the ICT4D methods, right?

654

00:43:22.900 --> 00:43:23.620

And I know these,

655

00:43:23.620 --> 00:43:28.140

these methods are to help bridge the digital divide to help marginalize people

656

00:43:28.270 --> 00:43:31.030

in developing countries. Um,

657

00:43:31.210 --> 00:43:35.430

now I know this is many years later after you were there,

658

00:43:35.430 --> 00:43:39.930

but I'm just wondering what your opinions are about like

659

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.010

Elon Musk's starlink.

660

00:43:42.140 --> 00:43:46.290

Do you think that's doing anything to bridge the divide or is it

661

00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:51.410

just another business thing? Does it follow the ICT4D methods at all?

662

00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:52.450

Or if,

663

00:43:52.450 --> 00:43:57.170

or like Elon Musk's starlink or Mark Zuckerberg's plan to give free

664

00:43:57.490 --> 00:44:01.490

internet access to many countries that don't have access of it. Um, you know,

665

00:44:01.490 --> 00:44:05.890

this is definitely a, uh, what's it called, freemium model or whatever, right?

666

00:44:05.890 --> 00:44:09.370

You get something for free, but then they take your data and sell it. Uh,

667

00:44:09.370 --> 00:44:09.930

so I'm.

668

00:44:09.930 --> 00:44:13.130

[Vida] Just curious what you, it's a word for it. All right. That's, that, that,</v>

669

00:44:13.130 --> 00:44:17.780

that's definitely, uh, interesting. Uh, Nolan,

670

00:44:18.350 --> 00:44:19.183

um,

671

00:44:19.820 --> 00:44:24.600

the value of ICT4D for development tools at like,

672

00:44:24.610 --> 00:44:27.880

uh, uh, from a very simple, uh,

673

00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:31.720

not even smartphone back then, because yeah,

674

00:44:31.720 --> 00:44:35.160

not everyone in Africa, even, I mean, I'm talking about,

675

00:44:36.450 --> 00:44:40.780

I should be careful because it's been since 2000 and, um,

676

00:44:41.390 --> 00:44:44.260

16, I haven't been back. So I,

677

00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:47.780

I'm sure like many other countries, uh, Africa,

678

00:44:47.780 --> 00:44:52.420

African countries have been made progress in many, many senses.

679

00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:54.770

uh, back then,

680

00:44:54.770 --> 00:44:59.730

even a very dumb phone could do a lot to a family,

681

00:45:00.260 --> 00:45:04.530

um, uh, in terms of their, uh, yeah, let's say, uh,

682

00:45:04.830 --> 00:45:08.410

the crops that they were going to, uh, to, uh,

683

00:45:08.410 --> 00:45:13.330

have that year or the, the year later or, um, uh,

684

00:45:13.330 --> 00:45:18.090

from, uh, even, uh, let's say this, uh, credit,

685

00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:22.490

like they could just send each other credit instead of carrying cash,

686

00:45:22.490 --> 00:45:26.310

which was very risky thing. Um, and, uh,

687

00:45:27.560 --> 00:45:32.210

so many other examples, um, I,

688

00:45:32.560 --> 00:45:36.850

Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, uh, this, um, this,

689

00:45:37.470 --> 00:45:41.930

you know, I, I'm very pessimist, and that's my personal opinion.

690

00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:47.370

I could be wrong, but I'm very pessimist to this capitalist models of,

691

00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:51.260

um, um, aid in a sense that,

692

00:45:53.090 --> 00:45:57.720

uh, they always start with something for your own benefit, for, for, for, uh,

693

00:45:57.720 --> 00:46:01.440

for, um, social and, and, and, you know,

694

00:46:01.630 --> 00:46:05.440

impact social value and, and impact and blah, blah, blah.

695

00:46:06.220 --> 00:46:08.640

But at the end,

696

00:46:08.640 --> 00:46:11.320

you see that it's going to make the rich richer.

697

00:46:11.860 --> 00:46:15.640

And most of the issues that we are facing

698

00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:21.490

in our global society right now, they are not. They're actually,

699

00:46:21.490 --> 00:46:25.830

it's because the rich got rich exploiting those countries

700

00:46:26.200 --> 00:46:29.810

at the first place. So in a sense,

701

00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:31.733

uh,

702

00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:36.730

ICT4D doesn't have to be these tools.

703

00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:41.410

They don't have to be very elaborated, very, very, uh,

704

00:46:41.410 --> 00:46:46.210

complicated tools, digital tools, no, uh, simple things would do wonder.

705

00:46:46.870 --> 00:46:51.820

And I'm sure African people with their own, uh, tacit knowledge,

706

00:46:51.820 --> 00:46:55.260

they are best at exploiting and, and, and,

707

00:46:55.260 --> 00:46:59.260

and actually employing those tools, simple tools for their benefits.

708

00:47:00.190 --> 00:47:01.220

Um, but

709

00:47:03.090 --> 00:47:06.860

I personally believe at this age, this era,

710

00:47:07.540 --> 00:47:12.520

internet should be a basic human rights. Uh,

711

00:47:12.520 --> 00:47:17.240

[Nolan] that’s what Mark Zuckerberg says, [laughter] .

712

00:47:17.330 --> 00:47:21.320

[Vida] Well, yes, but yeah, it could be my bias, but something that comes, you know, things,

713

00:47:21.320 --> 00:47:23.440

good things are said by so many people,

714

00:47:23.820 --> 00:47:27.560

but I always think twice if it comes from the mouth of a capitalist,

715

00:47:27.700 --> 00:47:31.720

and that's my personal, because yeah, um,

716

00:47:32.370 --> 00:47:36.250

it should be the right. But, um,

717

00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:40.450

I give you an anecdote. Uh, we have people, these, um,

718

00:47:40.810 --> 00:47:45.370

field workers who come to the door and they work for, uh,

719

00:47:45.510 --> 00:47:49.530

big, uh, humanitarian organizations, the international organizations,

720

00:47:49.530 --> 00:47:53.810

charity organizations, and they collect money, uh, like, uh,

721

00:47:53.810 --> 00:47:57.730

like okay, we, we are going to, uh,

722

00:47:57.730 --> 00:48:02.130

sponsor this, uh, packet of food for the babies in Africa,

723

00:48:02.350 --> 00:48:04.730

and it'll save, um, lives.

724

00:48:05.940 --> 00:48:10.360

And they want me as a middle class, uh,

725

00:48:11.250 --> 00:48:11.930

uh,

726

00:48:11.930 --> 00:48:16.360

citizen to donate 15 euro per month

727

00:48:17.420 --> 00:48:18.770

to this organization.

728

00:48:19.160 --> 00:48:23.570

I have no objection to charity work and donations. Um,

729

00:48:23.650 --> 00:48:27.370

there are couple of these organizations who actually,

730

00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:32.050

they do great work and they make impact. Well,

731

00:48:32.050 --> 00:48:34.810

then I questioned these field workers, you know,

732

00:48:34.810 --> 00:48:37.330

because they were young and they're students, and they, you know,

733

00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:41.290

they sometimes have no idea. They think they're doing great thing. I would say,

734

00:48:41.290 --> 00:48:45.570

how much in total yearly you need? And they say, yeah, only 30,000 euro.

735

00:48:45.630 --> 00:48:46.850

And I say, you know what?

736

00:48:46.900 --> 00:48:51.580

Instead of just going door to door and facing

737

00:48:51.580 --> 00:48:54.740

all these people who tell you, no, I'm not interested,

738

00:48:55.330 --> 00:48:59.340

just go to three top men of your organization.

739

00:48:59.340 --> 00:49:02.100

And I'm not gonna name the [laughter] , but,

740

00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:05.860

and ask them for not even one full salary,

741

00:49:06.210 --> 00:49:09.340

just half of the monthly salary that they,

742

00:49:09.950 --> 00:49:12.130

and they have it believe me.

743

00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:16.810

So it's not about the money. Uh,

744

00:49:16.810 --> 00:49:18.770

and I know that getting engaged in,

745

00:49:18.770 --> 00:49:22.770

in charity work is a good thing for a citizen. It's, you know,

746

00:49:22.770 --> 00:49:27.130

it's something that I advocate, but not every organization, um,

747

00:49:27.660 --> 00:49:31.900

is up to the standards, first of all. And second of all, it's,

748

00:49:31.900 --> 00:49:36.260

it's been very difficult to follow up on, on your money.

749

00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:40.180

And where does it go, how many percent of the money that you donate,

750

00:49:40.630 --> 00:49:45.220

it really goes to that child, because we know,

751

00:49:45.220 --> 00:49:49.900

and that's another frustration that I had from my working in in Africa that I

752

00:49:50.990 --> 00:49:55.480

observed that how many expats live lavish lives,

753

00:49:55.910 --> 00:50:00.120

very, very, you know, villas with pools, two cars,

754

00:50:00.930 --> 00:50:03.160

uh, multiple travels, you know,

755

00:50:03.160 --> 00:50:07.760

trips back to home and blanco check just to furnish their houses.

756

00:50:08.710 --> 00:50:09.890

And yeah, these were.

757

00:50:09.890 --> 00:50:13.170

[Nolan] Sometimes the people who live like that. It's not just, um,</v>

758

00:50:13.410 --> 00:50:16.850

from charity or private organizations, it's also the flip side.

759

00:50:16.850 --> 00:50:18.610

Like the people who, you know, they're,

760

00:50:18.610 --> 00:50:22.610

they're anti the capitalist organizations and they're like, oh,

761

00:50:22.610 --> 00:50:23.810

I'm gonna work for the government.

762

00:50:23.810 --> 00:50:26.210

But then the government does the exact same thing,

763

00:50:26.210 --> 00:50:28.600

and then they live with this government funding,

764

00:50:28.740 --> 00:50:31.360

and they also live in a nice house, two cars.

765

00:50:32.020 --> 00:50:35.160

[Vida] You know it, yes. So you see, that's the thing,</v>

766

00:50:35.160 --> 00:50:39.880

that's the frustration that I had that, okay. Um, I, I, you know,

767

00:50:40.150 --> 00:50:41.860

like, uh,

768

00:50:42.040 --> 00:50:46.270

development sector in a sense, you know,

769

00:50:46.270 --> 00:50:50.950

it was a big job market for Western people. And if you look at it,

770

00:50:50.980 --> 00:50:54.260

I mean, and okay, 50 years ago,

771

00:50:54.260 --> 00:50:57.100

maybe you could justify that with, you know, saying that I,

772

00:50:57.100 --> 00:51:01.820

African people are not educated, but come on. I mean, 60, 70 years later,

773

00:51:02.230 --> 00:51:06.470

we know that, I mean, first of all, education is one aspect.

774

00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:10.150

Second of all, they are so competent,

775

00:51:10.150 --> 00:51:14.110

highly qualified to take ownership of their own issues.

776

00:51:14.580 --> 00:51:19.510

Just leave the countries be please. You know? So in a sense,

777

00:51:19.570 --> 00:51:23.630

I'm very, very frustrated and disappointed in development sector,

778

00:51:23.630 --> 00:51:28.630

and that was the reason that I decided not to go back. Um,

779

00:51:29.600 --> 00:51:31.740

and, uh, yeah.

780

00:51:32.680 --> 00:51:36.980

[Nolan] Now, before we get to where you are now with your work, um,</v>

781

00:51:37.090 --> 00:51:41.380

I am curious a little bit more about your immigration stories,

782

00:51:41.380 --> 00:51:45.900

because it's something that I always bring up on this show because I hate

783

00:51:46.040 --> 00:51:50.460

bureaucracy, [laughter] , especially in the immigration, of course,

784

00:51:50.460 --> 00:51:53.100

bureaucracy. I understand it, it's necessary, right?

785

00:51:53.100 --> 00:51:54.500

We do need this in our world,

786

00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:58.220

but I find the bureaucratic process so archaic,

787

00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:00.500

and every person I've had on the show,

788

00:52:00.500 --> 00:52:05.500

every person I meet always has some story where it's just horrendous.

789

00:52:05.500 --> 00:52:08.060

And I don't know what it is about the immigration,

790

00:52:08.060 --> 00:52:12.140

immigration side of bureaucracy, but it seems to attract [laughter] .

791

00:52:12.170 --> 00:52:16.300

I'll just be straight up lazy, sadistic people, [laughter] . Now,

792

00:52:16.300 --> 00:52:18.660

if you're a bureaucrat listening to this, I am sorry.

793

00:52:18.660 --> 00:52:23.540

I'm sure there are many wonderful people out there as well, but on average,

794

00:52:23.970 --> 00:52:28.660

I only ever heard horror stories. Um, and this needs to change.

795

00:52:28.660 --> 00:52:32.940

I mean, I can look at my phone and it knows where I'm born,

796

00:52:32.940 --> 00:52:36.020

it knows my heart rate. It knows every little thing about me.

797

00:52:36.080 --> 00:52:40.300

Yet for me to go to a different country, I have to get all these papers,

798

00:52:40.770 --> 00:52:44.420

I have to sign it in the right spot. If it's signed outside of the line,

799

00:52:44.420 --> 00:52:48.620

I get rejected. I have to wait another six months, pay even more money.

800

00:52:48.620 --> 00:52:53.340

And it's just like, it's just hell to me, and it doesn't make any sense. Um,

801

00:52:53.550 --> 00:52:54.900

so yeah, that, that's my little tangent.

802

00:52:55.290 --> 00:52:59.940

[Vida] What's yours? I feel, you know, that, uh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean,</v>

803

00:53:00.160 --> 00:53:04.780

you talk about, you know, I, I've experienced so much power, uh,

804

00:53:05.020 --> 00:53:08.500

power play when you go to an immigration office,

805

00:53:09.290 --> 00:53:11.980

I don't know what it is, but it's just,

806

00:53:12.120 --> 00:53:16.380

you are in this position of, you know, like,

807

00:53:16.920 --> 00:53:21.100

you don't even dare to question a certain, certain, uh,

808

00:53:21.100 --> 00:53:23.860

type of work or attitude because you, you know,

809

00:53:23.860 --> 00:53:28.740

that your papers in the hand of this person, um,

810

00:53:28.990 --> 00:53:30.180

oh, this paper.

811

00:53:30.180 --> 00:53:30.780

[Nolan] It’s your life, right</v>

812

00:53:30.780 --> 00:53:35.780

[Vida] [laughter] , yeah, you're true. Yeah, indeed, huh. Yeah, it's true. But, uh,</v>

813

00:53:36.010 --> 00:53:40.340

it's, it's also, and at the same time, you know, that if you want to play dirty,

814

00:53:40.340 --> 00:53:44.220

like you can easily bribe and you get your,

815

00:53:44.220 --> 00:53:48.500

your file on top of the top of the, uh, pile. And, and,

816

00:53:49.080 --> 00:53:53.420

and, yeah. Um, I mean, not in Europe, of course, but, uh,

817

00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:56.580

but in other countries it's, it's very common.

818

00:53:56.830 --> 00:54:01.680

So you get outraged for being ethical and

819

00:54:01.680 --> 00:54:04.440

still being the, at the end of the line, [laughter] ,

820

00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:08.880

because someone else could just, you know, bribe the officer with, with,

821

00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:13.360

you know, in the, in the, in the light of the day. Not even that one, not even,

822

00:54:13.360 --> 00:54:18.310

you know? So, um, it's, it's a mixed thing. My immigration, you know,

823

00:54:18.520 --> 00:54:23.380

in Africa, for me as an expat, uh,

824

00:54:23.380 --> 00:54:28.140

was very, I mean, this, wait, the whole experience was great.

825

00:54:29.150 --> 00:54:33.770

Uh, I was really doing my, the work of my passion

826

00:54:36.330 --> 00:54:41.080

at liar, uh, lure. I had this, uh,

827

00:54:41.080 --> 00:54:45.800

ethical and moral, uh, doubts and questions like, because the more that I,

828

00:54:46.830 --> 00:54:51.750

I saw things, the, the more pessimistic that I became.

829

00:54:51.750 --> 00:54:55.070

And then I started to question, uh, things.

830

00:54:55.830 --> 00:54:59.490

And the third layer was, you know, as a sociologist,

831

00:54:59.490 --> 00:55:03.810

you always have these eyes, which observe this mind,

832

00:55:03.810 --> 00:55:06.290

which look is looking for the patterns.

833

00:55:07.200 --> 00:55:10.180

And African countries,

834

00:55:10.690 --> 00:55:13.900

they remind me a lot of Iran, that

835

00:55:15.610 --> 00:55:20.560

you had to play along any

836

00:55:20.560 --> 00:55:24.480

power play just to, you know, get the work done.

837

00:55:24.580 --> 00:55:28.040

And I said, yeah, what's the point? I, I,

838

00:55:28.770 --> 00:55:33.740

I left that country, you know, for that reason.

839

00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:37.740

And I'm experienced here again, no.

840

00:55:37.740 --> 00:55:39.820

[Nolan] Some, sometimes from my experience too,</v>

841

00:55:39.820 --> 00:55:44.460

like [laughter]  with some of those developing nations, uh, like I've only traveled,

842

00:55:44.460 --> 00:55:47.820

but I still needed a visa and [laughter] , I know it's kind of bad to say,

843

00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:51.660

but the corruption can almost be a little bit more enjoyable in the bureaucratic

844

00:55:51.660 --> 00:55:54.100

process. Cause it's like, whoa, 20 euros and

845

00:55:54.100 --> 00:55:56.460

and I can all of a sudden get my visa. Oh, 20 Euro olds,

846

00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:59.300

I could pay off this cop and I can skip the line. This is awesome.

847

00:55:59.300 --> 00:56:02.620

I can't do this in Spain. I can't do this in Canada. In Canada.

848

00:56:02.640 --> 00:56:04.540

I'm forced to wait six months. [laughter] .

849

00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:08.180

[Vida] Yes, that you just said 20 euro Exactly.</v>

850

00:56:08.180 --> 00:56:12.740

Like I remember in Ethiopia, I, in the, the effort itself,

851

00:56:13.250 --> 00:56:18.140

I remember that if you, if you paid $20, you could just, you know,

852

00:56:18.140 --> 00:56:22.900

go in another line and it, it was faster. And I was like, oh, [laughter] .

853

00:56:23.590 --> 00:56:26.120

[Nolan] Yeah, I didn't pull that number outta my ass. [laughter] .</v>

854

00:56:26.970 --> 00:56:30.600

[Vida] No, that's, it does. Seriously, that's just, and, and another, well,</v>

855

00:56:30.600 --> 00:56:35.160

that's a 40 euro, $40 story that I have, like in the, well,

856

00:56:35.160 --> 00:56:39.400

that's another, another story that at the national park in Nairobi, in,

857

00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:42.320

in Kenya, um, uh,

858

00:56:42.510 --> 00:56:45.220

I bought the gate.

859

00:56:45.630 --> 00:56:49.580

We were offered 20 euro, $20 discount.

860

00:56:50.070 --> 00:56:52.100

So the ticket was $40,

861

00:56:53.250 --> 00:56:57.950

and we were offered that if you pay, you can pay $20,

862

00:56:58.450 --> 00:57:01.990

but no receipt. You, you receive your no receipt. So in a sense,

863

00:57:01.990 --> 00:57:06.190

that $20 goes to the gate, man, the, the ticket officer,

864

00:57:06.690 --> 00:57:11.350

and, and I, I save also, you know, $20. And either you are,

865

00:57:11.350 --> 00:57:16.110

you pay $40 and you get the ticket, and the other, the poor gates guy,

866

00:57:16.110 --> 00:57:20.110

uh, the, the watchman or the, the ticket officer doesn't get any.

867

00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:24.950

So you suddenly face, uh,

868

00:57:24.950 --> 00:57:28.950

this ethical dilemma that, oh, okay,

869

00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:31.760

do I pay? Okay,

870

00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:36.080

let's say saving $20 for you is not at all a question. You say, no,

871

00:57:36.080 --> 00:57:37.720

I don't mind $20. You know,

872

00:57:38.270 --> 00:57:41.830

but then it's not about you saving $20,

873

00:57:41.830 --> 00:57:46.030

but you know that if you don't, you know,

874

00:57:47.690 --> 00:57:50.600

don't agree with the pride,

875

00:57:51.230 --> 00:57:55.440

that officer is not going to get any money.

876

00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:59.880

And at the same time, this $40 goes to the Kenyan government,

877

00:57:59.880 --> 00:58:01.720

which is corrupt in a sense.

878

00:58:02.070 --> 00:58:02.890

[Nolan] Yeah.</v>

879

00:58:02.890 --> 00:58:03.600

[Vida] So you have.</v>

880

00:58:03.600 --> 00:58:07.000

[Nolan] To, and then also it's, if everyone who can afford it, does it though,</v>

881

00:58:07.390 --> 00:58:09.240

than the people who can't afford it,

882

00:58:09.240 --> 00:58:11.160

keep getting pushed further and further back.

883

00:58:11.350 --> 00:58:14.280

[Vida] That's another indeed. I, I, I didn't think of that like,</v>

884

00:58:14.340 --> 00:58:17.360

but indeed that's another also, uh, consideration,

885

00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:22.320

the more ethical consideration that comes to mind. So what would you do? And,

886

00:58:22.370 --> 00:58:26.320

uh, so it's not always that straightforward to be, uh,

887

00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.720

to enjoy a kind of a corrupt, uh, situation,

888

00:58:29.720 --> 00:58:34.320

because then you have to really, um, think hard and say,

889

00:58:34.380 --> 00:58:37.660

who am I standing my principal,

890

00:58:38.150 --> 00:58:39.900

or this poor guy?

891

00:58:39.970 --> 00:58:44.140

That $20 could be the education fee for, you know,

892

00:58:44.520 --> 00:58:46.620

his son, you know? Yeah.

893

00:58:47.130 --> 00:58:51.500

[Nolan] Here, Vida. Um, we’re coming up on an hour now.</v>

894

00:58:51.690 --> 00:58:56.300

I would love to keep talking so we can end this episode here,

895

00:58:56.430 --> 00:58:58.340

because in the next episode,

896

00:58:58.530 --> 00:59:02.100

I want to start talking about another type of immigration process,

897

00:59:02.100 --> 00:59:03.700

because right now we're discussing,

898

00:59:03.890 --> 00:59:06.740

even though with corruption a little bit involved, we're,

899

00:59:06.740 --> 00:59:10.780

we're discussing both our immigrations experiences from kind of a privileged

900

00:59:10.780 --> 00:59:13.860

background, right? The fact that we can pay the $20,

901

00:59:14.330 --> 00:59:19.060

also just living as an expat in general is — has some privilege

902

00:59:19.060 --> 00:59:22.240

to it. So we're gonna end the episode here,

903

00:59:22.300 --> 00:59:26.240

and then next week I'll release the new one and we'll talk a little bit more

904

00:59:26.240 --> 00:59:28.880

about what it was like for you immigrating as a refugee,

905

00:59:29.160 --> 00:59:32.520

which of course was quite different. So remember,

906

00:59:32.520 --> 00:59:35.000

this was Without Borders. Uh,

907

00:59:35.000 --> 00:59:39.720

please go to ww dot withoutborders.fyi to access the

908

00:59:39.720 --> 00:59:42.960

transcript. And please tune in next week.