E25 How becoming a refugee led to self-actualization

All my essays, podcast episodes, and content are now on Substack. Please subscribe to bornwithoutborders.substack.com because I am no longer using Ghost. You can learn more about why I made the switch here.

Vida Razavi shares the differences between living as an asylum-seeker and a refugee in Belgium. She also talks about becoming Bahai, the Green movement (Persian Spring), and how everything she experienced led to self-actualization. Nolan reveals that Maslow saw self-transcendence as the top of the pyramid, not self-actualization.

I rely on paid subscriptions to make this possible. As a paid subscriber, you can support the show and become part of the conversation. The transcripts are free to all members to help more English learners. I encourage English learners to discuss the language and content in my English classes. I also share my expertise in intercultural competence for business English.

WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.380 --> 00:00:03.520
[Voices] Inescapably, inescapably.

2
00:00:04.180 --> 00:00:08.760
[Nolan] Inescapably Foreign. Welcome to Without Borders. I'm your host,

3
00:00:08.760 --> 00:00:12.360
Nolan Yuma. This is the show for the inescapably Foreign.

4
00:00:12.560 --> 00:00:15.680
Today I am here with Vida Razavi

5
00:00:16.100 --> 00:00:18.280
and if you didn't tune in last week,

6
00:00:18.410 --> 00:00:23.400
we left off talking about bureaucracy and immigration. Uh,

7
00:00:23.400 --> 00:00:28.080
Vita was describing her experiences living as an expat in various African

8
00:00:28.080 --> 00:00:31.640
countries and some of the corruption around that.

9
00:00:32.140 --> 00:00:36.080
But now we're going to get into her other immigration story, which is,

10
00:00:36.090 --> 00:00:41.000
as a refugee going to Belgium. Okay.

11
00:00:41.250 --> 00:00:42.160
So Vida,

12
00:00:42.160 --> 00:00:46.720
can you tell us what it was like as a refugee

13
00:00:47.010 --> 00:00:51.520
in Belgium and what it was like to seek asylum in the whole process around that?

14
00:00:53.610 --> 00:00:58.440
[Vida] Oh, wow. Um, I have a short answer to that question, and I have a long one.

15
00:00:58.690 --> 00:01:02.200
Um, I would maybe, uh,

16
00:01:02.200 --> 00:01:06.400
I wouldn't satisfy the curiosity of your listeners with the short answer,

17
00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:10.090
but I am gonna provide it anyway. Um,

18
00:01:11.090 --> 00:01:15.030
the experience of seeking asylum in, in Belgium

19
00:01:17.170 --> 00:01:18.590
was an, uh,

20
00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:26.510
eye-opening and very much,

21
00:01:27.360 --> 00:01:28.830
uh, at,

22
00:01:28.830 --> 00:01:32.590
at catalyst for my self-actualization process.

23
00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:37.840
I can see that absolutely with all confidence, uh,

24
00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:39.750
since, you know,

25
00:01:39.750 --> 00:01:44.470
you put my life in contrast as an Iranian, uh,

26
00:01:44.580 --> 00:01:47.110
expat in Africa, student in Belgium,

27
00:01:47.210 --> 00:01:51.730
and then asylum seeker in Belgium, and then refugees,

28
00:01:51.730 --> 00:01:52.610
because, you know,

29
00:01:52.610 --> 00:01:56.130
it's important to know the difference when you are asylum seeker and you are not

30
00:01:56.130 --> 00:01:56.963
yet refugee.

31
00:01:57.110 --> 00:02:01.930
You experience life the same life very differently than when you get your

32
00:02:01.930 --> 00:02:05.740
status and you become a refugee. And, uh, and that.

33
00:02:05.740 --> 00:02:07.540
[Nolan] Can you explain sort the differences there?

34
00:02:07.930 --> 00:02:12.340
[Vida] Absolutely. This is something that I also explain in my workshops, uh,

35
00:02:12.340 --> 00:02:15.180
to people. Cuz not everyone knows it. You see,

36
00:02:15.490 --> 00:02:18.100
when we talk about immigrants,

37
00:02:18.750 --> 00:02:23.220
we are talking about mostly like people who, for earning,

38
00:02:23.590 --> 00:02:25.260
uh, uh, doing their job,

39
00:02:25.260 --> 00:02:28.860
they travel to another country or they're for living another life.

40
00:02:29.230 --> 00:02:32.860
So when we talk about asylum seekers,

41
00:02:32.860 --> 00:02:37.800
we are talking about a group of people who, because of,

42
00:02:38.250 --> 00:02:39.083
uh, reason,

43
00:02:39.430 --> 00:02:44.160
a valid reason that their life in their home country is in

44
00:02:44.160 --> 00:02:48.720
danger and their human rights is violated. Um,

45
00:02:48.870 --> 00:02:52.080
they go and seek asylum,

46
00:02:52.230 --> 00:02:54.640
seek refuge in another country.

47
00:02:56.470 --> 00:03:01.160
The process that you have from seeking asylum then

48
00:03:01.160 --> 00:03:06.000
become your asylum seeker up to the moment that you receive the status

49
00:03:06.010 --> 00:03:09.500
of refugee. That's not an, uh,

50
00:03:09.500 --> 00:03:14.380
very short procedure or, or, you know, it takes time. So

51
00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:20.390
from the time that you become officially asylum seeker to officially

52
00:03:20.390 --> 00:03:21.870
refugee or not,

53
00:03:22.730 --> 00:03:26.630
you are going to live a different life because then probably,

54
00:03:27.950 --> 00:03:32.860
uh, unlike an immigrant, that you have your own home and your own, you know,

55
00:03:33.180 --> 00:03:36.220
financial basis to, to, to survive.

56
00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:41.590
You are sent to a refugee camp. And we know that,

57
00:03:41.590 --> 00:03:42.630
for example, in Europe,

58
00:03:42.850 --> 00:03:47.150
not every refugee camp is the same.

59
00:03:48.110 --> 00:03:52.850
And there are refugee camps that are basically, you know, containers. You know,

60
00:03:52.850 --> 00:03:56.530
you, you have to live it, four or five other people in the container.

61
00:03:56.530 --> 00:03:58.850
And most of the times it's, um,

62
00:03:58.850 --> 00:04:02.570
these are the refugee camps or the buildings like old buildings,

63
00:04:02.570 --> 00:04:07.130
army buildings that, um, uh, uh,

64
00:04:07.270 --> 00:04:11.930
and now they actually repurpose it for, uh, for,

65
00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:15.690
uh, accommodating the refugee asylum seekers.

66
00:04:15.790 --> 00:04:20.490
And then once your procedure is over and they,

67
00:04:20.490 --> 00:04:24.530
you get an answer like, okay, um, you are recognized as a refugee,

68
00:04:25.430 --> 00:04:29.490
you have the right to stay here and you become resident

69
00:04:30.140 --> 00:04:34.690
or know, bye-bye, go back to your country, or, you know, uh,

70
00:04:34.690 --> 00:04:39.400
it's your problem now, then it's a different, uh, different situation.

71
00:04:39.790 --> 00:04:42.240
[Nolan] From all the people that you work with.

72
00:04:42.270 --> 00:04:45.680
What is the average amount of time now you work in Belgium? So we,

73
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:46.480
we can talk about Belgium.

74
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:51.040
What is the average amount of time that people are in that kind of limbo

75
00:04:51.500 --> 00:04:56.120
and maybe staying in those containers and staying in those camps?

76
00:04:56.370 --> 00:04:58.880
[Vida] Uh, sometimes between like two months,

77
00:04:59.130 --> 00:05:04.040
up to five years or six years behalf people who were

78
00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.920
really like, um, their children were born there.

79
00:05:07.060 --> 00:05:10.520
The children went to school when they were still in the camp,

80
00:05:10.980 --> 00:05:15.960
and they were still when they're teenager. So you can see that,

81
00:05:16.130 --> 00:05:21.000
um, it, it, the range is quiet long and on average,

82
00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:25.200
let's say a year, two years, two years and a half.

83
00:05:26.130 --> 00:05:26.963
Um,

84
00:05:27.020 --> 00:05:31.720
and it's not uncommon that some people have to wait for like four,

85
00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:32.553
five years.

86
00:05:33.830 --> 00:05:34.320
[Nolan] Shit. That’s insane

87
00:05:34.320 --> 00:05:37.240
[Vida] Now you can imagine that, uh,

88
00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:42.060
so you are living five years of your life, uh,

89
00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:46.750
with a different social status in a completely,

90
00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:51.230
you you can, you are able to work, of course, you, you may work,

91
00:05:51.850 --> 00:05:56.230
but of course it's not, uh, for everyone, um, uh, the, the,

92
00:05:56.230 --> 00:06:00.490
the option. But I mean,

93
00:06:00.490 --> 00:06:05.160
raising children in two, two small rooms Yeah. Of, uh,

94
00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:10.080
becoming a teenager in two small rooms living with 400 other people. That's,

95
00:06:10.310 --> 00:06:11.640
that's a different life.

96
00:06:12.460 --> 00:06:17.280
[Nolan] And now from your personal story, so how, how long were you there for?

97
00:06:17.980 --> 00:06:22.470
[Vida] Well, luckily for me, it was a very fast procedure. I was, uh,

98
00:06:22.560 --> 00:06:27.350
in total four months in, in, in the camp, uh, the first two months,

99
00:06:27.400 --> 00:06:32.030
uh, I was waiting for my, my, uh, uh, let's say the decision.

100
00:06:32.770 --> 00:06:37.510
And then the next two months I had time to look for a place to go

101
00:06:37.570 --> 00:06:39.230
and, uh, leave the center.

102
00:06:39.650 --> 00:06:44.470
And those two months were so frustrating because, um, you know,

103
00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:47.990
uh, as a, as a refugee,

104
00:06:49.970 --> 00:06:54.160
there is a yeah, stereotype or refugees that yeah,

105
00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:58.200
you are lazy. You, you don't work, you don't have money.

106
00:06:58.730 --> 00:07:03.200
So it's very difficult to rent a house. People are not really,

107
00:07:04.340 --> 00:07:09.060
uh, yeah, uh, willing to rent your,

108
00:07:09.060 --> 00:07:11.820
your place because all the serious times, ah,

109
00:07:11.820 --> 00:07:16.140
you don't take care of my house properly. And I remember that, um,

110
00:07:17.310 --> 00:07:22.000
period, this two months that I was looking for. House was so frustrating.

111
00:07:22.430 --> 00:07:27.360
I was so at outraged because I knew that it was simply because

112
00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.400
they don't trust me enough. And,

113
00:07:30.350 --> 00:07:34.170
and I had this like, um,

114
00:07:35.050 --> 00:07:36.480
uh, in a sense that,

115
00:07:37.550 --> 00:07:42.130
like a question that, look,

116
00:07:42.790 --> 00:07:44.290
I'm the same person,

117
00:07:44.930 --> 00:07:49.890
maybe even the better person than last year that I was a student here and

118
00:07:49.890 --> 00:07:54.820
I had no difficulty running a place. And now with my, it's.

119
00:07:54.820 --> 00:07:57.260
[Nolan] Crazy to me, these stereotypes and the — this is something,

120
00:07:57.260 --> 00:07:58.700
what I'm trying to do with this show,

121
00:07:58.700 --> 00:08:02.580
and my project in general is just trying to break all this because,

122
00:08:03.890 --> 00:08:07.740
well, you, has one example already, right? Brilliant woman,

123
00:08:07.840 --> 00:08:12.340
you speak different languages, three degrees. Um, I mean,

124
00:08:12.340 --> 00:08:15.620
I've had so many other people on this show where they show they, they're,

125
00:08:15.620 --> 00:08:19.380
they're immigrants and they contribute so much to society. Now,

126
00:08:19.380 --> 00:08:23.700
I know you're not a capitalist, but [laughter] in America, um,

127
00:08:23.980 --> 00:08:26.340
most of the big companies that were created,

128
00:08:26.340 --> 00:08:30.740
and a lot of these multi-billion dollar corporations and say what you want about

129
00:08:30.740 --> 00:08:33.620
the corporations, but they do contribute in some ways.

130
00:08:33.620 --> 00:08:38.570
And these are started by immigrants most of the time, right? Uh,

131
00:08:38.570 --> 00:08:41.250
absolutely. Yeah. There's a little full interjection there. But.

132
00:08:42.740 --> 00:08:46.410
[Vida] Um, you see, um, there's stereotypes are,

133
00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:51.250
um, they have this social,

134
00:08:52.180 --> 00:08:55.210
um, nature of it because it becomes collective.

135
00:08:56.330 --> 00:08:59.270
But at the same time, it's also pretty much

136
00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:04.170
at psychological level and an individual level in a sense,

137
00:09:04.300 --> 00:09:07.450
because at the same time, um,

138
00:09:08.600 --> 00:09:11.930
it's about you using your common sense.

139
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:17.270
Um, the housing of newcomers,

140
00:09:17.660 --> 00:09:22.510
refugees in Belgium has been always problematic. Uh, we know that,

141
00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:26.030
um, politically driven because, I mean,

142
00:09:26.410 --> 00:09:29.830
ideologically driven because, um,

143
00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:34.750
somehow they don't want it to be facilitated.

144
00:09:34.750 --> 00:09:39.270
They don't want to pamper refugees. They want it to be as hard as possible.

145
00:09:40.230 --> 00:09:42.940
So the, the, the policy makers,

146
00:09:43.010 --> 00:09:47.540
they have this naive idea that if it's not

147
00:09:47.610 --> 00:09:52.060
easy, if we don't pamper them, they're not gonna keep coming. [laughter], you know,

148
00:09:52.530 --> 00:09:55.460
that is the logic of our policy makers,

149
00:09:55.460 --> 00:10:00.420
because they think that they are providing positive incentive for them to come.

150
00:10:00.800 --> 00:10:05.660
But then at the same time, despite all the, you know, they, they,

151
00:10:05.660 --> 00:10:10.180
they, they're not aware that this refugees, you know, um,

152
00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:14.530
escaping war, uh,

153
00:10:14.530 --> 00:10:18.890
putting their lives on the palm of their hand crossing

154
00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:22.850
oceans in the unsafest way,

155
00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:25.673
um,

156
00:10:25.980 --> 00:10:30.820
dragging their babies and children behind women

157
00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:32.260
who get raped,

158
00:10:32.260 --> 00:10:36.900
women who have nothing like they are highly

159
00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:40.260
traumatized during this trip, that they, you know,

160
00:10:40.480 --> 00:10:44.340
the paying the human traffickers, uh, getting,

161
00:10:44.550 --> 00:10:49.500
getting hostage by human traffickers to just demand more money

162
00:10:49.500 --> 00:10:51.060
from the families back home.

163
00:10:52.790 --> 00:10:56.940
And then despite all this, people know this, huh?

164
00:10:57.760 --> 00:10:59.110
Despite all this,

165
00:10:59.180 --> 00:11:03.070
they have to flee their home because they have no hope whatsoever.

166
00:11:03.100 --> 00:11:05.710
They are afraid that they're gonna die there.

167
00:11:06.710 --> 00:11:10.480
They go through all these hardships to reach here.

168
00:11:11.510 --> 00:11:14.730
And, and the, our policymakers,

169
00:11:14.730 --> 00:11:19.330
they think that if they make it difficult for them, you know,

170
00:11:19.330 --> 00:11:23.330
to find a house, they're gonna keep, come, uh, uh, stop with,

171
00:11:23.330 --> 00:11:28.250
that's a really, you know, the very unrealistic,

172
00:11:28.250 --> 00:11:29.083
as you mentioned earlier.

173
00:11:29.470 --> 00:11:33.890
[Nolan] You said how there's this misconception that they're just gonna,

174
00:11:34.160 --> 00:11:36.250
from the tax dollars, and as you say, it's.

175
00:11:36.270 --> 00:11:36.690
[Vida] The.

176
00:11:36.690 --> 00:11:37.070
[Nolan] Black market,

177
00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:40.850
the process of them getting to the country shows that these are the least lazy

178
00:11:40.850 --> 00:11:44.570
people, right? These are people that are going to fight to make a living.

179
00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:48.330
They're gonna fight to do something for their family, for their community.

180
00:11:48.820 --> 00:11:51.290
Of course, you want people like that in your country,

181
00:11:51.750 --> 00:11:56.100
and there are examples of the people that, uh,

182
00:11:56.420 --> 00:11:58.540
might take advantage of the system, right?

183
00:11:58.540 --> 00:12:01.020
But that is definitely not the majority.

184
00:12:02.070 --> 00:12:06.940
[Vida] And so, yes, absolutely, absolutely. In, um, unfortunately,

185
00:12:07.550 --> 00:12:11.580
uh, those positive, uh, anecdotes, these positive,

186
00:12:12.230 --> 00:12:15.780
uh, Uh,

187
00:12:15.780 --> 00:12:20.300
examples are lost within the, that the negativity of it.

188
00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.890
And some people are not willing to listen. And, um,

189
00:12:25.030 --> 00:12:28.130
and as I said, that collective side is one thing,

190
00:12:28.130 --> 00:12:31.920
but sometimes I come across people who are really,

191
00:12:33.260 --> 00:12:36.080
are they, you know, they say, you,

192
00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.640
you cannot wake up someone who's pretending to sleep,

193
00:12:39.640 --> 00:12:43.040
because some people are really not, uh, uh,

194
00:12:43.110 --> 00:12:47.640
they don't want to see the reality and, and accept that. Yeah.

195
00:12:47.690 --> 00:12:49.040
Because yeah, the,

196
00:12:49.930 --> 00:12:54.710
and that has to do with the concept of inferiority and superiority.

197
00:12:55.270 --> 00:12:58.830
Superiority and that privilege that you have as a superior,

198
00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:02.590
it makes you feel good. Let's face it, it,

199
00:13:02.590 --> 00:13:06.430
it's nice for some people to, to feel superior.

200
00:13:07.260 --> 00:13:08.093
[Nolan] Mm-hmm.

201
00:13:09.230 --> 00:13:12.610
Now, one of the reasons you're, you were able to, uh,

202
00:13:12.610 --> 00:13:17.370
obtain the refugee status is because you are Bahai. Right?

203
00:13:17.620 --> 00:13:21.250
Uh, so I'm, I'm curious to learn a little bit more about the Bahai religion.

204
00:13:21.400 --> 00:13:24.970
I I know the basics around it, right? I know that, um,

205
00:13:24.970 --> 00:13:28.970
Bahai teachings are about accepting everyone no matter their race,

206
00:13:28.970 --> 00:13:33.930
no matter the gender. Um, so to me, it seems like a very positive, uh,

207
00:13:34.290 --> 00:13:37.090
religion, or at least a positive way of thinking. Um,

208
00:13:37.090 --> 00:13:39.410
so can you describe to me a little bit more about how,

209
00:13:39.710 --> 00:13:43.210
how you got into this and how,

210
00:13:43.210 --> 00:13:44.770
how it guides your life possibly?

211
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.090
[Vida] Absolutely. So, um,

212
00:13:48.090 --> 00:13:51.810
I should mention first that I'm not a born Bahai. So, you know,

213
00:13:51.890 --> 00:13:55.450
Bahais in Iran the last 200 years, um,

214
00:13:55.840 --> 00:14:00.450
they have been politically and socially,

215
00:14:00.820 --> 00:14:05.250
uh, persecuted and, and, and deprived from their human rights. Uh,

216
00:14:06.180 --> 00:14:11.040
one luck that I had in my life was that, uh,

217
00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:14.680
we were surrounded with lots of Bahai friends from, from the childhood.

218
00:14:15.340 --> 00:14:17.570
And these friends,

219
00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:21.690
they were leading their lives despite the hardships,

220
00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:25.130
because they were not allowed to work. They were not allowed to study.

221
00:14:25.130 --> 00:14:29.770
They were not, they were from time to time put in jails, uh,

222
00:14:30.110 --> 00:14:35.090
and, uh, just without any reason. And their houses, uh, get, uh, raided and,

223
00:14:35.090 --> 00:14:39.770
and, um, so much discrimination against Bahais.

224
00:14:39.770 --> 00:14:44.090
And also, um, that was a political part, uh, from the government.

225
00:14:44.090 --> 00:14:48.090
And then you had this, uh, like very, uh,

226
00:14:48.860 --> 00:14:53.840
uh, like, like religious, um,

227
00:14:54.010 --> 00:14:58.120
beliefs about Bahai faith that like, um, that we,

228
00:14:58.770 --> 00:15:02.880
we marry our children and no, no, sorry, have sex with our children,

229
00:15:02.890 --> 00:15:07.880
or we drink blood when we get together like this, uh, how do you say, uh,

230
00:15:07.880 --> 00:15:12.350
populist, um, populist, um, uh,

231
00:15:12.350 --> 00:15:16.790
like beliefs. It's just bullshit. Yes.

232
00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:21.390
Well, yes, indeed. Well, I, I [laughter], well, I,

233
00:15:21.390 --> 00:15:25.590
I should not be politically correct in this case. Indeed, like very, uh,

234
00:15:25.590 --> 00:15:29.710
stupid ideas that they were, oh, you know, that's the thing.

235
00:15:29.990 --> 00:15:34.670
These are no stupid. That is what, how this make sense of their,

236
00:15:34.890 --> 00:15:38.030
you know, world, you know? So in a sense, it's not stupid,

237
00:15:38.060 --> 00:15:42.510
it's just how they think. And if these were fed mostly by,

238
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.870
by this Muslim ec clergy, um, that, uh, yeah,

239
00:15:47.380 --> 00:15:50.350
that was also particularly driven. Anyway,

240
00:15:50.350 --> 00:15:54.030
so they were discriminated not even only by government,

241
00:15:54.030 --> 00:15:58.250
but also by their neighbor, for example. And, uh,

242
00:16:00.430 --> 00:16:05.370
and just growing up in that environment, uh, yeah,

243
00:16:05.370 --> 00:16:08.650
and, and getting exposed to those teachings. And also the,

244
00:16:08.650 --> 00:16:13.210
the core message of Bahai faith is unity in

245
00:16:13.210 --> 00:16:16.810
diversity. And, you know, if you think about it,

246
00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:20.700
you will realize that this is the challenge of our era.

247
00:16:20.770 --> 00:16:24.740
That we are so diverse, that we, we,

248
00:16:25.190 --> 00:16:28.900
we have so much different identities,

249
00:16:28.900 --> 00:16:33.740
and we are in conflict with each other because we cannot accept that someone

250
00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:38.060
has a different opinion from me. Someone looks differently from me,

251
00:16:38.060 --> 00:16:40.860
someone smells differently from me. And,

252
00:16:41.530 --> 00:16:45.330
and in this really fragmented society,

253
00:16:45.330 --> 00:16:49.890
what we need is to respect each other despite we don't have to become

254
00:16:49.890 --> 00:16:53.610
similar, to be able to live in peace.

255
00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:58.450
We can. And that's the core message of Bahai, that,

256
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:03.100
that I don't want everyone to become Bahai.

257
00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:08.100
I don't want everyone to become Muslim. Let's just respect the human dignity.

258
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:11.980
And, you know, and that is, for me,

259
00:17:12.300 --> 00:17:15.420
something that I, I,

260
00:17:15.830 --> 00:17:20.580
it is just not only a faith, it is it's principle. It becomes,

261
00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:25.670
uh, you know, um, uh, something to, you know, to,

262
00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:30.630
to live up to. And yes, uh,

263
00:17:30.630 --> 00:17:33.990
so I, I, I became Bahai by choice. And,

264
00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:36.070
um,

265
00:17:36.070 --> 00:17:40.760
most of the people that I still cherish their presence in my life,

266
00:17:41.150 --> 00:17:43.160
they are Bahai and,

267
00:17:43.160 --> 00:17:47.420
and sometimes closer than family because of those, you know,

268
00:17:47.420 --> 00:17:51.480
those values that they live their values. And that's very valuable for me.

269
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.720
[Nolan] Now, I think you might have a unique perspective on this, because,

270
00:17:56.370 --> 00:17:58.280
um, you're behind, but you've grew,

271
00:17:58.280 --> 00:18:02.640
you grew up in a culture that is primarily Muslim, right?

272
00:18:03.340 --> 00:18:04.840
And, um,

273
00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:09.880
one thing that I find very positive about Muslim

274
00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:14.520
countries is the fact that suicide is

275
00:18:14.520 --> 00:18:19.440
virtually absent in countries like Egypt and some other Muslim

276
00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:24.040
countries, which I find fascinating. Um, I think I, what's the stat?

277
00:18:24.150 --> 00:18:25.360
It's like, um,

278
00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:30.320
people in Lithuania were several hundred times more likely

279
00:18:30.690 --> 00:18:34.840
to commit suicide than people in Egypt. That's interesting.

280
00:18:34.840 --> 00:18:39.160
And obviously that that is a positive outcome from the, the Muslim teachings.

281
00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:42.730
Right. And I was wondering if you,

282
00:18:42.730 --> 00:18:45.610
from your perspective of having grown up in, in, uh,

283
00:18:45.620 --> 00:18:47.450
in a culture that is primarily Muslim,

284
00:18:48.140 --> 00:18:52.690
is there a way for more secular societies

285
00:18:53.340 --> 00:18:56.650
to adapt this type of thinking to,

286
00:18:56.740 --> 00:19:00.290
to limit the pandemic of, of suicide, um,

287
00:19:00.290 --> 00:19:02.330
without being Muslim?

288
00:19:04.600 --> 00:19:08.190
[Vida] Um, you see suicide, uh,

289
00:19:08.770 --> 00:19:11.870
sociologically speaking, um,

290
00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:17.310
it has to do with many factors. As psychological factors aside,

291
00:19:17.310 --> 00:19:22.030
I'm purely talking about, because now you said Muslim, um, well, you know,

292
00:19:22.310 --> 00:19:26.750
religion provides you with some sort of codes of behavior,

293
00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:29.900
uh, what, what is wrong and what is right.

294
00:19:30.190 --> 00:19:34.860
So that can have an effect that if I really believe that God

295
00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:39.580
has forbidden me to commit suicide and take my life, then,

296
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:45.180
and if that is so strong for me, then yeah, I, I I would've do it.

297
00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:50.730
You will be surprised to know that, uh, I, I, well,

298
00:19:50.730 --> 00:19:55.450
don't expect me the statistics, but you know, in Iran recently,

299
00:19:55.670 --> 00:19:59.290
the rate of suicide and collective suicides,

300
00:19:59.290 --> 00:20:03.690
like in the sense that a family, they just, they just kill, uh,

301
00:20:03.790 --> 00:20:08.210
the whole, I mean, they, they, they commit suicide collectively,

302
00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:13.130
but not one person due to the fact that the poverty has

303
00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:17.730
risen up so much so out of desperation and

304
00:20:18.020 --> 00:20:22.930
no hope, eh, they, they just take their lives. And, um,

305
00:20:23.600 --> 00:20:27.030
so in a sense, your belief system is one thing,

306
00:20:27.890 --> 00:20:31.030
and then you have this, um,

307
00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:36.510
explanation that you say, okay, if you feel alone, if you, if,

308
00:20:36.510 --> 00:20:39.390
even though if you're economically and financially doing well,

309
00:20:39.390 --> 00:20:44.230
but if you have no connections or relations, then, then, um,

310
00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:46.990
yeah, you say, okay, what's the point? You know,

311
00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:50.640
know if you become nihilist or you have no meaning in life.

312
00:20:51.090 --> 00:20:53.040
So there are certain factors,

313
00:20:55.280 --> 00:20:59.340
but I can imagine comparing Egypt and,

314
00:20:59.340 --> 00:21:04.340
and Iran. Iran, even though it's, it has been ruled by Muslims,

315
00:21:05.390 --> 00:21:09.730
and it has been always historically religious,

316
00:21:10.180 --> 00:21:14.810
um, country since, uh, centuries ago.

317
00:21:17.590 --> 00:21:22.090
But that belief system, that strong belief system about, you know,

318
00:21:22.090 --> 00:21:27.050
the most Islamic belief system is not that strong in

319
00:21:27.050 --> 00:21:31.650
people. Uh, okay. So Egypt, I would,

320
00:21:31.800 --> 00:21:36.410
I would consider Egypt a much more, a stronger Islamic, uh,

321
00:21:36.410 --> 00:21:38.450
society than Iran.

322
00:21:40.100 --> 00:21:43.780
[Nolan] Ah, interesting. Okay. Um,

323
00:21:44.280 --> 00:21:47.020
but percentage-wise, I, well,

324
00:21:47.020 --> 00:21:50.420
I don't know if you're gonna rely on the stats here, but percentage- wise,

325
00:21:51.020 --> 00:21:55.060
[laughter] and Iran here, more Muslim, of course. We'll, uh,

326
00:21:55.140 --> 00:21:59.380
we'll stay away about some of those stats and opinions there. But,

327
00:22:00.230 --> 00:22:02.860
um, uh, I just to,

328
00:22:02.860 --> 00:22:07.620
just to connect the previous episode and, and talking about Iran and,

329
00:22:07.620 --> 00:22:10.420
and then moving to Belgium, uh,

330
00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:13.580
you left during the green movement, right?

331
00:22:14.050 --> 00:22:15.500
[Vida] Absolutely. That's.

332
00:22:15.500 --> 00:22:16.660
[Nolan] Correct. Okay. Now,

333
00:22:16.660 --> 00:22:19.020
now for some people who are listening and they don't know what the,

334
00:22:19.020 --> 00:22:20.660
the green movement, it's not, uh,

335
00:22:20.660 --> 00:22:24.540
an environmental movement or a sustainable movement. Um,

336
00:22:24.540 --> 00:22:28.700
some people might know this as the, the Persian awakening or the Persian Spring,

337
00:22:28.700 --> 00:22:33.510
because that's how it was sometimes referred to in, uh, Western media. Uh,

338
00:22:33.530 --> 00:22:36.550
can you tell us a little bit more just about your experience here?

339
00:22:38.060 --> 00:22:41.790
[Vida] Absolutely. Uh, so, you know, in, uh, 2008,

340
00:22:41.790 --> 00:22:46.590
we had this election in Iran, um, uh, which actually

341
00:22:48.220 --> 00:22:51.790
made, I'm, I'm saying made, uh, because, uh,

342
00:22:51.790 --> 00:22:56.230
that was the election that many of people, including myself,

343
00:22:56.370 --> 00:22:58.550
who were really pessimist, uh,

344
00:22:58.800 --> 00:23:01.950
to the whole Democratic procedure in Iran,

345
00:23:02.320 --> 00:23:06.630
we went and we voted because we really believe that this time

346
00:23:07.120 --> 00:23:10.870
we are going to make, uh, you know, back then it was, um,

347
00:23:12.310 --> 00:23:16.130
Mir-Hossein Mousavi was one of the candidates, uh,

348
00:23:16.130 --> 00:23:20.330
which was one of the progressives and, and reformist, uh, candidates.

349
00:23:21.070 --> 00:23:24.370
And we thought, okay, he's our, you know,

350
00:23:24.370 --> 00:23:28.170
hope for change. Uh,

351
00:23:28.270 --> 00:23:32.890
and the opposite candidate, the competing candidate was, uh, was this,

352
00:23:32.980 --> 00:23:34.530
uh, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad,

353
00:23:34.530 --> 00:23:39.210
which was became internationally famous for being very stupid and like

354
00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:43.170
bush kind of thing for America. He was our puppet.

355
00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:45.700
And even though we, we,

356
00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:49.820
we strongly believe that the election, the election, uh,

357
00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:52.580
was hijacked and, um,

358
00:23:52.890 --> 00:23:57.140
many people wanted Mousavi and, and,

359
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:02.150
Ahmadinejad became the president. And then it started,

360
00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:06.670
like, yeah, okay. Um, then the protests started the,

361
00:24:06.670 --> 00:24:11.510
the demonstrations in not all the countries in Major Ma

362
00:24:11.510 --> 00:24:15.470
in all the cities, but major cities like Tehran. Back then,

363
00:24:15.470 --> 00:24:19.030
I was student in Tehran, uh, and I was studying sociology.

364
00:24:19.770 --> 00:24:24.440
And our university was also in one of the, one of the, yeah,

365
00:24:24.990 --> 00:24:27.780
hotspots actually. Um,

366
00:24:29.570 --> 00:24:34.510
green movement had to do with, uh, it was,

367
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:38.950
it belonged to my generation. And I always reflect on that,

368
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:44.750
uh, movement in the light of the currents, um, uh,

369
00:24:44.760 --> 00:24:48.550
protest, which are going on in Iran. Uh,

370
00:24:48.550 --> 00:24:53.150
and it's called Women Life Liberty. And, uh,

371
00:24:55.020 --> 00:24:58.730
so this time is much more intenser. It's, uh,

372
00:24:58.840 --> 00:25:02.970
more widespread and la uh,

373
00:25:03.250 --> 00:25:07.120
compared to back then. But still, when I reflect on it,

374
00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:12.120
I realized that my generation back then, we couldn't really, we,

375
00:25:12.330 --> 00:25:16.880
we didn't want revolution because we couldn't imagine

376
00:25:16.910 --> 00:25:18.920
revolution. We, we,

377
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:23.000
what actually was at best for us,

378
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:27.240
the demand was a reform we believed in. Like, okay,

379
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:32.240
revolution is not possible. We couldn't imagine it. And then he thought,

380
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.040
okay, we start with reform. Let's,

381
00:25:35.080 --> 00:25:37.480
let's not shake the structure,

382
00:25:38.340 --> 00:25:43.200
but let's start from the, you know, the body of, of, of the society,

383
00:25:43.300 --> 00:25:47.740
and step first step by step go, go and change

384
00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:53.850
this generation. They're saying, no way. I mean,

385
00:25:53.850 --> 00:25:57.530
we don't want molas. I mean, that's it. We are done with you.

386
00:25:58.760 --> 00:26:03.570
Back then, my generation, we left, they said, we don't fit in.

387
00:26:03.950 --> 00:26:07.450
Our election was stolen. We, um,

388
00:26:09.140 --> 00:26:12.650
we cannot live up to our values, bye-bye,

389
00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:17.010
we build up our careers somewhere else. Uh, we did it,

390
00:26:17.010 --> 00:26:21.930
like many of my peers, they did the same. We all went to America,

391
00:26:22.060 --> 00:26:26.780
to Canada, to Europe, to Africa, myself, to just,

392
00:26:26.780 --> 00:26:30.480
you know, seek prosperity somewhere else.

393
00:26:31.660 --> 00:26:33.920
But this generation,

394
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:38.900
which actually really gives me the goosebump,

395
00:26:39.350 --> 00:26:42.300
is that they say, why leaving?

396
00:26:42.890 --> 00:26:47.510
We stay and we take our country back. That's a different,

397
00:26:47.690 --> 00:26:49.510
you know, that's a generation

398
00:26:51.290 --> 00:26:54.690
which can imagine freedom. You know,

399
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:58.730
back then we had it in us, we wanted it,

400
00:26:59.870 --> 00:27:03.990
but revolution was not in our picture. Yeah.

401
00:27:04.530 --> 00:27:09.330
And yeah, so somehow, you know,

402
00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:10.490
I I,

403
00:27:10.490 --> 00:27:14.890
I have only admiration for this generation putting their lives in the palm of

404
00:27:14.890 --> 00:27:18.920
their hands and going to the streets, uh, and speak, well,

405
00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:20.480
I'm gonna really b bloodier than before.

406
00:27:21.250 --> 00:27:22.083
[Nolan] Yeah.

407
00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:26.740
While just for the political sensitivities here, uh,

408
00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:30.980
listeners know, and my followers who read by articles know that I'm quite blunt.

409
00:27:31.270 --> 00:27:33.340
Uh, but for the political sensitivities reasons,

410
00:27:33.340 --> 00:27:34.780
I'm just gonna leave that there,

411
00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:38.580
because I think that's a hopeful message that the generation, um,

412
00:27:39.800 --> 00:27:44.150
is, is, uh, hopeful [laughter]. Right. So we'll leave that part there,

413
00:27:44.150 --> 00:27:47.310
but now to connect it all, um,

414
00:27:47.420 --> 00:27:51.870
this l led you to eventually immigrate to Belgium,

415
00:27:51.870 --> 00:27:53.470
right? So your job now,

416
00:27:53.470 --> 00:27:58.390
and one thing that you kind of hinted at the beginning of this episode was this

417
00:27:58.390 --> 00:28:03.190
idea of self-actualization and how this whole process, um, now,

418
00:28:03.190 --> 00:28:07.630
now that we have a little bit of idea how it happened, how it started, um,

419
00:28:07.630 --> 00:28:10.990
so this whole immigration process for you had a lot to do with

420
00:28:11.330 --> 00:28:15.590
self-actualization. Can you describe a little bit more what you mean by that?

421
00:28:16.840 --> 00:28:18.730
[Vida] Absolutely. Um,

422
00:28:20.250 --> 00:28:24.920
so it's a, it's a good question to try to indeed, uh,

423
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:25.880
connected dots,

424
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:30.760
because it has to do with the whole life that I've lived up

425
00:28:30.760 --> 00:28:33.560
to now. And, um,

426
00:28:35.970 --> 00:28:39.060
from that girl who was, you know,

427
00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:41.460
a bookworm and

428
00:28:43.190 --> 00:28:47.170
hiding from the chaos, you know,

429
00:28:47.360 --> 00:28:52.140
inside the pages of books and books and books up to the person

430
00:28:52.140 --> 00:28:55.450
that I'm, now, I've realized that

431
00:28:57.730 --> 00:29:00.970
every step that I went further from home,

432
00:29:02.390 --> 00:29:07.220
uh, geographically and also timely, like, you know,

433
00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:10.810
10 years ago, I,

434
00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:17.490
I, I, I, yeah, the,

435
00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:22.490
the whole concept of me myself was different from now.

436
00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:26.610
So it, it really stretches in time and, and, and, and space,

437
00:29:28.820 --> 00:29:31.200
all these exposures that I had to

438
00:29:34.260 --> 00:29:39.150
unknowns. It wasn't easy to go to Africa as, as that naive,

439
00:29:39.350 --> 00:29:43.160
naive girl who thought I'm going to save, you know, Africa,

440
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:49.140
uh, all those exposures, uh, and those, those,

441
00:29:49.870 --> 00:29:52.850
you know, getting out of your comfort zone

442
00:29:54.360 --> 00:29:57.760
always put me in front of a mirror

443
00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:04.200
that I could see different sides of me. You know, it,

444
00:30:05.260 --> 00:30:10.030
self-actualization for me was triggered by the fact that I was away

445
00:30:10.030 --> 00:30:14.720
from that place that you normally call home.

446
00:30:15.290 --> 00:30:19.880
It normally people think that, okay, home has a positive connotations.

447
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:24.560
It's not the same for everyone. Unfortunately, not everyone has this, you know,

448
00:30:24.620 --> 00:30:28.800
you think of home, you say, oh, I have warmth, love, um,

449
00:30:29.390 --> 00:30:32.360
play fun, um, you know,

450
00:30:32.950 --> 00:30:37.770
this comfort and, and, and, and not,

451
00:30:37.790 --> 00:30:41.480
not everyone has that experience from home. So

452
00:30:44.910 --> 00:30:45.520
the,

453
00:30:45.520 --> 00:30:50.010
that's ironic that the further that I got from that home,

454
00:30:53.040 --> 00:30:57.760
the more I could discover that to feel at home

455
00:30:57.910 --> 00:31:01.240
myself. Um, you know, it's, it,

456
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:06.190
it all starts from a geographical and a, a, a,

457
00:31:06.190 --> 00:31:07.590
a, uh, you know, um,

458
00:31:08.590 --> 00:31:13.330
a time period in your life. And then after,

459
00:31:13.330 --> 00:31:17.690
sometimes it goes beyond that, and then you realize that,

460
00:31:18.800 --> 00:31:20.240
uh, oh,

461
00:31:20.510 --> 00:31:25.360
I can feel at home despite being far from

462
00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:29.460
home, because then it becomes this inner, uh,

463
00:31:29.460 --> 00:31:33.580
feeling of you this, that you are comfortable with the unknown,

464
00:31:33.810 --> 00:31:38.580
that you are confident in exploiting

465
00:31:38.580 --> 00:31:42.100
the unknown and uncomfortable because

466
00:31:43.970 --> 00:31:47.140
it's, it's absolutely a psychological thing.

467
00:31:47.140 --> 00:31:49.660
It's a state of mind that you carry, you know,

468
00:31:50.320 --> 00:31:54.700
and the more expose you to this uncomfortable teeth,

469
00:31:54.700 --> 00:31:59.060
to different things that you are not really, um, at the first year,

470
00:31:59.320 --> 00:32:00.000
you,

471
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.860
you are even have this bias towards to, to,

472
00:32:04.860 --> 00:32:07.500
to towards this, uh, unknown.

473
00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:12.320
And then the more you realize, like, it's, it's a, it, it,

474
00:32:12.730 --> 00:32:15.840
imagine you are a small balloon,

475
00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:19.520
and because of the exposure you get, uh, you know,

476
00:32:20.650 --> 00:32:22.990
you, you get expanded and expanded,

477
00:32:22.990 --> 00:32:27.990
and somehow then you realize, oh, okay, I,

478
00:32:29.510 --> 00:32:33.680
uh, I am more comfortable with everything now.

479
00:32:34.410 --> 00:32:38.780
Definitely. So self actually, yeah. When you're.

480
00:32:38.780 --> 00:32:40.680
[Nolan] Talking the self-actualization,

481
00:32:40.940 --> 00:32:44.960
are you also referring to like Maslow's hierarchy of needs

482
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:47.620
and also his definition.

483
00:32:47.620 --> 00:32:50.140
[Vida] Of Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. You know why?

484
00:32:50.150 --> 00:32:53.210
Because for self-actualization,

485
00:32:54.180 --> 00:32:59.110
your basic needs needs to be met in any way. I mean,

486
00:32:59.110 --> 00:33:03.230
first thing, it's basic need to safety. In my opinion,

487
00:33:03.570 --> 00:33:05.070
you need to feel safe.

488
00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:10.510
[Nolan] Now, now that you, do you, would you consider yourself self actualized?

489
00:33:11.590 --> 00:33:15.420
[Vida] Uh, yes. At the moment, yes. Yes. So.

490
00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:19.460
[Nolan] What, what I'm curious about that is because many people think that

491
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:24.860
self-actualization is the top of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but it isn't.

492
00:33:25.570 --> 00:33:30.480
Oh, um, no, no. It's a, it's a, tell me about a very common misconception.

493
00:33:31.090 --> 00:33:34.760
Uh, the top of the pyramid is actually self transcendence.

494
00:33:35.180 --> 00:33:36.120
But the thing is,

495
00:33:36.120 --> 00:33:40.520
is that Maslow started thinking more about this and writing about this near the

496
00:33:40.520 --> 00:33:45.110
end of his life. So a lot of this wasn't published.

497
00:33:45.610 --> 00:33:50.550
but a lot of the critique around self-actualization is that it's focused too

498
00:33:50.550 --> 00:33:54.590
much on the self, right? So people were saying, well,

499
00:33:54.800 --> 00:33:58.230
it has to be something more than that. And Maslow actually did agree with that.

500
00:33:58.500 --> 00:34:01.750
A lot of the critique against self-actualization comes into tr

501
00:34:01.930 --> 00:34:05.670
self-transcendence, which instead of just,

502
00:34:06.780 --> 00:34:11.190
well, self-actualization, you know, as you said, you have to meet,

503
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:14.630
uh, the safety needs. You have to have a love in your family,

504
00:34:14.780 --> 00:34:18.750
a sense of belonging. Um, and then of course, like the,

505
00:34:18.750 --> 00:34:23.230
if you have the esteem and, uh, respect for others and self,

506
00:34:25.220 --> 00:34:29.970
um, and then self-actualization is,

507
00:34:30.040 --> 00:34:32.770
well, how, how would you define self-actualization?

508
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:37.900
Because I think a lot people say it's like dedicating

509
00:34:37.910 --> 00:34:42.860
oneself to a higher goal in a way. Um.

510
00:34:43.320 --> 00:34:43.940
[Vida] Not really.

511
00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:45.740
[Nolan] How else, what else would you add to it?

512
00:34:46.610 --> 00:34:51.520
[Vida] Uh, and so the way that I see self actualization is that

513
00:34:51.620 --> 00:34:56.160
how you exhaust your potential and you discover

514
00:34:56.380 --> 00:35:00.640
all these sides into you, you know, like, um,

515
00:35:01.070 --> 00:35:05.040
I consider myself, uh, multi-dimensional person.

516
00:35:06.390 --> 00:35:10.450
Why? Because every step,

517
00:35:11.240 --> 00:35:15.190
I realized that this dimension of me

518
00:35:16.100 --> 00:35:18.970
doesn't necessarily negate or, or,

519
00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:23.210
or comes in conflict with the other dimension. You know? So

520
00:35:24.830 --> 00:35:29.280
when I was at home, the 17, the first 17 years in Mashhad,

521
00:35:29.630 --> 00:35:31.960
I was a one-dimensional girl.

522
00:35:32.180 --> 00:35:36.760
The moment that I took off went to a

523
00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:41.760
smaller city, a student city, seven hours later with bus, like, you know, like,

524
00:35:42.100 --> 00:35:45.560
you just get on the bus, seven hours later, you are there.

525
00:35:46.990 --> 00:35:49.450
I had this

526
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.470
freedom to be myself.

527
00:35:55.180 --> 00:35:55.970
[Nolan] Yeah.

528
00:35:55.970 --> 00:35:59.550
[Vida] And once you have this freedom to be yourself

529
00:36:00.680 --> 00:36:02.390
in time, I mean,

530
00:36:02.390 --> 00:36:06.030
degree of freedom is different because freedom is something that is given to

531
00:36:06.030 --> 00:36:10.510
you. It's very, very, very situational. It's very conditional. Circumstantial.

532
00:36:10.510 --> 00:36:14.390
[Nolan] Yeah. But of course, like, just to tie this in with the self-actualization,

533
00:36:14.390 --> 00:36:18.990
right? Um, it does also was people are self-actualized.

534
00:36:19.150 --> 00:36:22.790
Some of the criteria is also that you would lack prejudice,

535
00:36:23.220 --> 00:36:26.310
accept facts, and to like know your potential,

536
00:36:26.310 --> 00:36:29.710
which is exactly what you're talking about with like understanding your freedom.

537
00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:34.870
And it seems like, well, from what your whole story over the past to podcasts,

538
00:36:34.870 --> 00:36:38.350
you've really realized your potential. Um,

539
00:36:38.350 --> 00:36:41.590
but then just to tie it back into the  ,

540
00:36:41.590 --> 00:36:42.990
the self-transcendence,

541
00:36:42.990 --> 00:36:47.990
what he talks about is more about having these peak experiences and

542
00:36:47.990 --> 00:36:51.070
these mystical experiences, um,

543
00:36:51.070 --> 00:36:54.270
where you feel this connectivity with everything.

544
00:36:54.770 --> 00:36:57.510
And I think that's true. You realize like, okay,

545
00:36:57.510 --> 00:37:00.430
like once you've realized your full potential,

546
00:37:00.430 --> 00:37:02.830
there's still something above that.

547
00:37:02.830 --> 00:37:06.750
And that's where like this mystical kind of spiritual realm comes in.

548
00:37:07.490 --> 00:37:10.830
And I think that's something that we're kind of losing,

549
00:37:11.220 --> 00:37:13.670
especially in our secular societies,

550
00:37:14.160 --> 00:37:17.070
is we're kind of losing the sense of mysticism.

551
00:37:17.490 --> 00:37:20.550
And I think we talk a lot about the flow state,

552
00:37:20.550 --> 00:37:24.710
which does relate to self-transcendence as well. Right. Um,

553
00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:29.450
but not really in the sense of the mystical, right. And, uh,

554
00:37:29.450 --> 00:37:31.570
I think that's interesting with Maslow,

555
00:37:31.570 --> 00:37:34.650
cuz he was one of the first people to start thinking about the flow state,

556
00:37:34.650 --> 00:37:36.530
or at least in the west [laughter] ;, one of the first,

557
00:37:36.600 --> 00:37:38.810
I should specify that one of the version Western Yeah.

558
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:43.730
[Vida] Should start the Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no. Uh, no. Well,

559
00:37:43.730 --> 00:37:48.570
it's, it's, it's, um, it's new to me. And I, and it made, made me thinking,

560
00:37:49.010 --> 00:37:52.920
actually, yes, that's true. Um, does it matter?

561
00:37:54.170 --> 00:37:57.480
Uh, yes. Um, but

562
00:37:59.130 --> 00:38:02.820
I think we should not forget that, you know,

563
00:38:03.250 --> 00:38:07.620
I myself look at my whole life and I realize that, you know,

564
00:38:07.620 --> 00:38:11.500
the way that you put it to connected dots, and I see wow,

565
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.660
the dots were connected in my life, and I'm now at this moment,

566
00:38:16.660 --> 00:38:20.340
and I still have things to look forward to, like,

567
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:26.580
you know, self-actualization. For me, it comes also with kind of a power,

568
00:38:26.690 --> 00:38:30.540
like not a power to exercise to others,

569
00:38:30.600 --> 00:38:35.440
but a power and inside inner power that gives me the

570
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:39.560
confidence to go forward. Why? Because

571
00:38:41.100 --> 00:38:43.960
self-actualization is not all positive in a sense.

572
00:38:44.140 --> 00:38:48.600
You get to know your dark size, the demons that you have, and you,

573
00:38:48.600 --> 00:38:52.710
you have to face them too. And then, but,

574
00:38:52.770 --> 00:38:55.710
but once you are comfortable with that,

575
00:38:56.090 --> 00:39:00.910
you are capable of handling them. You're, it is either you, you know.

576
00:39:01.340 --> 00:39:03.670
[Nolan] Talking about being comfortable and capable with it.

577
00:39:03.670 --> 00:39:06.830
Do you think it's possible to go, or something that I'm thinking about lately?

578
00:39:06.850 --> 00:39:09.270
Can you go backwards on the pyramid?

579
00:39:12.450 --> 00:39:17.280
[Vida] Uh, that's, that's very related to what I, um, yes, yes,

580
00:39:17.580 --> 00:39:21.720
yes. Again, about the concept of safety. You know, once you,

581
00:39:21.940 --> 00:39:26.600
you deny or deprive people of their basic needs,

582
00:39:28.090 --> 00:39:31.940
y it's easy to fall from the ladder, you know?

583
00:39:31.940 --> 00:39:36.620
And there is a very anal, a nice analogy that they say, yeah,

584
00:39:36.620 --> 00:39:41.180
they put couple of, um, philosophers and scientists, uh, uh,

585
00:39:41.180 --> 00:39:46.140
that they are, you know, top the gods of, you know, morality and ethics.

586
00:39:46.240 --> 00:39:50.340
And they, they put them together and they say, discuss, um,

587
00:39:50.340 --> 00:39:54.580
discuss morality, discuss ethics, and good, good and bad.

588
00:39:54.950 --> 00:39:59.110
And then every day, uh, they, um, they,

589
00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:03.790
uh, they, um, reduce the portion of the food that they get.

590
00:40:04.640 --> 00:40:08.990
So every day they become hungry and hungry and there's some certainties

591
00:40:09.220 --> 00:40:13.110
gods of philosophy and, you know, ethics and morality, they,

592
00:40:13.110 --> 00:40:17.710
they start fighting with, with each other over food. So you see,

593
00:40:17.710 --> 00:40:21.380
in that sense, you are, yeah,

594
00:40:21.900 --> 00:40:25.980
basic needs. It's also related to the concept of refugees. You know,

595
00:40:25.980 --> 00:40:30.120
they say our refugees are this and that, sorry,

596
00:40:30.120 --> 00:40:34.760
but you put people under so much stress and

597
00:40:35.040 --> 00:40:39.760
pressure and traumatic experiences and, and, and, and lack of social dignity,

598
00:40:39.920 --> 00:40:44.550
human dignity. And you want them not to be angry. You want them,

599
00:40:44.550 --> 00:40:47.190
you know, for me, for me,

600
00:40:47.190 --> 00:40:51.310
morality is something that you need to be able to afford in a sense.

601
00:40:51.410 --> 00:40:56.310
And it doesn't come unless your basic needs to safety, security,

602
00:40:56.740 --> 00:41:01.070
hunger, and, and, and, and, and, you know, these are mets.

603
00:41:01.800 --> 00:41:05.490
[Nolan] What about people who don't get those

604
00:41:06.290 --> 00:41:10.770
basic needs stripped away from them? Because I, of course, I understand that,

605
00:41:10.770 --> 00:41:14.770
let's say a self-actualized person, right? Something happens in their homeland,

606
00:41:15.010 --> 00:41:17.770
their safety is stripped away. Um,

607
00:41:18.050 --> 00:41:22.410
maybe they're taken away from their family. So their love needs are met.

608
00:41:23.380 --> 00:41:24.840
[Vida] I'm so sorry, Nolan,

609
00:41:24.990 --> 00:41:29.040
I have to make a eye connection with my boy because he's back.

610
00:41:30.340 --> 00:41:35.240
Hi, Bobby. I'm sorry. Yeah, they couldn't stay outside longer.

611
00:41:35.860 --> 00:41:37.200
I'm sorry to disturb you.

612
00:41:37.790 --> 00:41:42.440
[Nolan] Okay, no problem. No problem. Well, we're coming up on an hour here anyways,

613
00:41:42.850 --> 00:41:45.440
uh, but just to wrap it up, um,

614
00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:49.800
I did want to just ask your opinion about going backwards on the,

615
00:41:50.140 --> 00:41:50.973
the pyramid,

616
00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:56.280
but not when someone else takes away or some

617
00:41:56.280 --> 00:42:00.160
situation strips away safety and the basic needs.

618
00:42:00.700 --> 00:42:05.620
But sometimes I wonder if trying to

619
00:42:05.620 --> 00:42:09.660
hard to self-actualize, um, or not,

620
00:42:09.660 --> 00:42:11.940
not  self transcendence, but really to get this,

621
00:42:12.350 --> 00:42:17.100
to meet your full potential that really putting this as like your

622
00:42:17.100 --> 00:42:18.300
primary objective,

623
00:42:18.790 --> 00:42:23.340
if that could in itself strip away love and the basic

624
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:27.020
needs. Like sometimes I think about it in my own situation with this project,

625
00:42:27.930 --> 00:42:32.160
I really feel that with all my skills,

626
00:42:32.160 --> 00:42:35.760
everything that I've learned, that my, everything that I can do,

627
00:42:36.010 --> 00:42:38.360
my full potential is this project.

628
00:42:38.360 --> 00:42:42.160
Like I'm putting everything I have into this project,

629
00:42:43.020 --> 00:42:47.160
and on one end it's the self-actualization in myself. Like,

630
00:42:47.160 --> 00:42:48.240
I feel like I can do this,

631
00:42:48.240 --> 00:42:51.520
but I'm also doing it because I think it brings something positive into the

632
00:42:51.520 --> 00:42:55.390
world. And by trying to make this a success,

633
00:42:55.390 --> 00:43:00.060
because of course by my, my goal being to break down borders,

634
00:43:00.060 --> 00:43:01.500
to limit polarization,

635
00:43:01.630 --> 00:43:06.580
to share stories from as many people as possible who have traveled for

636
00:43:06.580 --> 00:43:10.980
this to work, I have to reach a lot of people. So I put a shit ton of money,

637
00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:15.420
[laughter] and time into trying to reach a lot of people.

638
00:43:16.560 --> 00:43:19.070
And at some point,

639
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.830
if this keeps going the direction it is,

640
00:43:22.330 --> 00:43:24.910
I'm going to not have any more money.

641
00:43:25.450 --> 00:43:30.230
I'm already spending so much time on this project that I don't spend time with

642
00:43:30.230 --> 00:43:31.350
loved ones anymore.

643
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:36.550
So by trying to self-actualize and reach my full

644
00:43:36.550 --> 00:43:40.990
potential, I'm actually stripping away the levels below it. I'm,

645
00:43:40.990 --> 00:43:43.430
I'm spending less time with loved ones.

646
00:43:43.900 --> 00:43:48.030
I am doing less to meet my security needs.

647
00:43:48.130 --> 00:43:50.510
And it's just something that I've been thinking about.

648
00:43:50.510 --> 00:43:53.470
So I was curious about your opinion, because I know you think a lot about self.

649
00:43:53.620 --> 00:43:58.310
[Vida] That's very true. Your work that that sounds maybe paradoxical,

650
00:43:58.310 --> 00:44:00.030
but in my opinion,

651
00:44:01.370 --> 00:44:06.350
self-actualization doesn't happen, happen with consciousness in a sense.

652
00:44:06.730 --> 00:44:10.670
You know, you don't know. That's the thing that, um,

653
00:44:11.300 --> 00:44:15.760
you know, we all grew up with some sort of boundaries in our mind,

654
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:18.080
like mental states that we have.

655
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:23.330
And self-actualization to me is like removing those boundaries,

656
00:44:24.170 --> 00:44:28.710
you know? And you never know until you know it. That's the thing.

657
00:44:28.710 --> 00:44:31.760
It's not a goal that you put, you know, know, it's,

658
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:35.400
it's like you talked about prejudice. I remember I,

659
00:44:35.470 --> 00:44:37.840
I was here in Belgium and, you know,

660
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:40.200
as someone who traveled to so many countries,

661
00:44:40.200 --> 00:44:43.080
lived with different diverse cultures,

662
00:44:43.830 --> 00:44:47.000
I once came across, uh, gang of, uh,

663
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:50.480
like a couple of Afghani teenagers.

664
00:44:51.200 --> 00:44:55.460
And in the middle of the street, suddenly I felt very tense and,

665
00:44:55.460 --> 00:44:59.060
and ready to, you know, fight or flight.

666
00:45:00.150 --> 00:45:03.370
Uh, and then I,

667
00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:08.770
it happened in a moment that I, that I, I passed by these, these teenagers,

668
00:45:08.770 --> 00:45:10.050
Afghani teenagers,

669
00:45:10.050 --> 00:45:15.010
and I immediately could hear my own self

670
00:45:15.010 --> 00:45:19.890
thoughts that, Vida, you are working in this sector.

671
00:45:20.150 --> 00:45:23.050
You are advocating diversity.

672
00:45:23.990 --> 00:45:28.810
How come you are afraid of this Afghani is like,

673
00:45:28.810 --> 00:45:30.490
I was putting in, uh,

674
00:45:30.490 --> 00:45:34.050
like putting up with this stereotypes around Afghanis.

675
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:39.510
It took me a day to just reflect on that, that I realized that, ooh, in Iran,

676
00:45:39.980 --> 00:45:43.670
Afghanis are like refugees here in, in Belgium. They are,

677
00:45:43.670 --> 00:45:46.670
there are so many negative stereotypes around Afghanis.

678
00:45:46.670 --> 00:45:50.550
They think because they are mostly immigrants, work immigrants, and they think,

679
00:45:50.550 --> 00:45:54.990
I, Afghani is this and this. And, and in, when I, when I was a child,

680
00:45:55.220 --> 00:45:59.990
they used to scare, scare of us, of, of Afghani that they're kidnapped kids,

681
00:46:00.260 --> 00:46:05.190
even though I'm sure I am absolutely sure. That was just,

682
00:46:05.190 --> 00:46:09.070
you know, a very sick, uh, projection and, and,

683
00:46:09.070 --> 00:46:12.950
and lots of baseless stereotypes around Afghani.

684
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:14.633
And, uh,

685
00:46:14.790 --> 00:46:19.620
it took me a day to get aware of my stereotype and my

686
00:46:19.620 --> 00:46:23.730
prejudice towards Afghanis. And then I, I,

687
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:25.050
I don't exaggerate this,

688
00:46:25.080 --> 00:46:29.850
I became actually much more peaceful because I was aware of

689
00:46:29.850 --> 00:46:33.170
my prejudice now and since then, I,

690
00:46:33.440 --> 00:46:36.690
I don't exaggerate. I see Afghanis,

691
00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:39.050
I have no problem whatsoever.

692
00:46:39.120 --> 00:46:43.730
I don't get into that defense mechanism anymore, defense state anymore.

693
00:46:44.670 --> 00:46:48.770
And to me, that's self-actualization, you know? Yeah.

694
00:46:49.420 --> 00:46:52.520
And did it come on its own? No,

695
00:46:52.570 --> 00:46:57.240
it had to do with all the experience that I had and that specific

696
00:46:57.240 --> 00:47:02.160
moment that I could reflect on because I was free to

697
00:47:02.160 --> 00:47:06.160
reflect. You know, that's the thing that, that,

698
00:47:06.190 --> 00:47:10.480
that self-actualization has to do with the,

699
00:47:10.700 --> 00:47:13.800
the degree of freedom. So in a sense,

700
00:47:14.990 --> 00:47:17.690
and it comes after basic needs.

701
00:47:18.150 --> 00:47:22.410
You take me to a camp with, with,

702
00:47:22.710 --> 00:47:25.690
you know, when I don't feel safe,

703
00:47:27.170 --> 00:47:31.440
I'm afraid of anyone, not, not only Afghanis, you know,

704
00:47:32.740 --> 00:47:37.060
so it is, it is self-actualization. I, I,

705
00:47:37.060 --> 00:47:40.220
I completely get what you mean by this, uh,

706
00:47:40.580 --> 00:47:44.350
apparently paradoxical thing. But you,

707
00:47:44.410 --> 00:47:49.390
you know it if you know it, you know, it's not one thing that you consciously,

708
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:54.390
uh, you know, as aspire to or, or go for it. No.

709
00:47:55.260 --> 00:47:57.830
It's part of you that are unknown to you,

710
00:47:57.830 --> 00:48:02.550
and you'll soon see them or face them. I mean,

711
00:48:02.550 --> 00:48:03.230
it'll come.

712
00:48:03.230 --> 00:48:07.770
[Nolan] Definitely. Well, Vida, I think that's a beautiful note to end it on,

713
00:48:07.770 --> 00:48:10.370
especially what you said there with, um,

714
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:15.920
that once you realize your own prejudices

715
00:48:16.490 --> 00:48:19.440
or prejudice, then you,

716
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:23.000
yourself will feel more relaxed as well,

717
00:48:23.000 --> 00:48:25.160
and you'll find some peace in yourself.

718
00:48:25.160 --> 00:48:29.320
And I think that's something that I hope to encourage with this show by sharing

719
00:48:29.600 --> 00:48:32.160
everyone's stories. So, Vida, again,

720
00:48:32.160 --> 00:48:35.200
thank you so much for sharing your story with everyone today.

721
00:48:35.690 --> 00:48:39.480
If anyone is interested in learning more about it, uh,

722
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.400
please comment on the show.

723
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:46.000
You can comment on whatever platform you're listening on or go to

724
00:48:46.330 --> 00:48:50.200
www.withoutborders.fyi. Again,

725
00:48:50.200 --> 00:48:54.360
you can access the transcript there and a bunch of interesting articles about

726
00:48:54.640 --> 00:48:58.280
cultural psychology, and I'll also put some links in there, uh,

727
00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:01.170
to Vida's work as well. Uh, Vida,

728
00:49:01.330 --> 00:49:03.290
anything you want to finish up with here?

729
00:49:04.100 --> 00:49:08.950
[Vida] Well, Nolan, uh, I can only see that your end note was, uh, beautifully said,

730
00:49:09.180 --> 00:49:12.990
better than, uh, what I myself said. So thank you for that.

731
00:49:12.990 --> 00:49:15.950
And thank you for inviting me for, to your show.

732
00:49:15.950 --> 00:49:18.190
It was very stimulating conversation,

733
00:49:18.290 --> 00:49:21.670
and I'm going to have lots of, uh,

734
00:49:21.670 --> 00:49:25.910
food for thoughts for the next few days because I, I got some, uh,

735
00:49:25.940 --> 00:49:27.990
I got very much inspired. Thank you very much.

736
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:31.870
[Nolan] Perfect. Well, I hope to have you on the show again, and listeners,

737
00:49:31.870 --> 00:49:33.790
please tune in next time.