Fixing Misconceptions about Africa with Marmalade
Nolan Yuma and Tola Alade, the CEO of Marmalade venture, talk about the misconceptions people have about Africa and how Marmalade fixes them through branding and raising awareness about African entrepreneurs and artists.
Nolan and Tola share their opinions about critical theory, Jordan Peterson, the rhetoric around slavery, and how to unify instead of divide.
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I rely on paid subscriptions to make this possible. As a paid subscriber, you can support the show and become part of the conversation. The transcripts are free to all members to help more English learners. I encourage English learners to discuss the language and content in my English classes. I also share my expertise in intercultural competence for business English.
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[Nolan] Inescapably Foreign. Welcome to Without Borders. I'm your host, Nolan Yuma
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Janssens. If this is your first time tuning into this show,
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remember you can go to Without borders.fyi to access the
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transcript, some language notes, and a bunch of interesting articles about,
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uh, nomad experiences, immigrant stories, and, uh,
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there's just a bunch there for anyone else that feels inescapably foreign. Today,
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I'm here with Tola Alade, um, and he's an experienced creative director,
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brand designer, and CEO of Marmalade Venture. Uh,
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we're gonna get into that a bit more. Uh, but first of all,
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to how are you doing today?
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[Tola Alade] I'm doing fantastic. I'm doing very well. Uh, it's great to,</v>
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it's great to finally be on a call now.
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[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, I've been excited.</v>
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I've been looking forward to this for the past, I guess, month and a half. Yes,
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I contacted you.
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[Tola Alade] Yes.</v>
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[Nolan] Um,</v>
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so I found out about Marmalade Collective because I was looking at other websites.
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That's, uh, you used ghost.org.
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And are you the one who started the website as well, or are you,
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was that someone on your team?
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[Tola Alade] No, that's myself. Um, that was after lots of research,</v>
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Weighing up pros and cons, and finally decided on on Ghost. Yeah.
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[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. I'm super happy with Ghost because, uh,</v>
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for the listeners who don't know, it's a, it's nonprofit. Um, they also try,
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they al they're also carbon neutral, so it's, uh,
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an organization online that I feel good about being a part of.
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[Tola Alade] Yes. And clearly it's, uh, connecting people as well, so, [laughter].</v>
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[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah.</v>
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[Tola Alade] Yeah.</v>
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[Nolan] Um, so Tola, where are you right now?</v>
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[Tola Alade] So, I'm based in London, uh, London, England. Um,</v>
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and I've lived here for the last, well, since 2004,
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which is 18 years ago.
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[Nolan] Yeah. Okay. And are you in Shortage?</v>
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Because I saw you were doing some projects in Shoreditch, correct. Or.
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[Tola Alade] No? No. No. So, um, I used to have an office in Shoreditch,</v>
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and Shoreditch has become somewhere. I just spent quite a lot of time, uh,
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both professionally as well as just socially partying. Yeah.
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[Nolan] Okay. And did you grow up in London?</v>
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[Tola Alade] I would say so. I came to the UK, uh, when I was 16 in 2004.</v>
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So I would say my formative years in terms of, um, my,
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for formative years as a young adult or, you know, a, um,
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a teenager. Yeah. Where sort of, uh, happened here.
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Over here. Yeah.
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[Nolan] Okay. And where, where are you originally from?</v>
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[Tola Alade] I'm from Nigeria.</v>
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[Nolan] From Nigeria.</v>
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[Tola Alade] Okay. Lagos. Nigeria. Yeah.</v>
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[Nolan] And do you go back there often or.</v>
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[Tola Alade] Um, so prior, so I came in 2004, as I mentioned before.</v>
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Um, and it took me a long time to go back, uh,
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purely off the back of, um, I wanted to go with the right people cuz um,
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you know, I had some concerns about, you know, not,
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not knowing enough people back there and not being able to access certain
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places or certain things. Um,
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and what happened is I managed to get a group of friends
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about four of us in total, and we went back in 2018. And that was,
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that was that, that was just a, it was such a life-changing experience.
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In what way? Genuine way. Yeah. Sorry.
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[Nolan] In what ways was it life changing? </v>
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[Tola Alade] I mean, mean, so you say one, um, a lot of my, you know,</v>
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I'm from Nigeria, but because I grew up there mostly as a, you know, as a child,
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um,
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my understanding or my recollection of how Nigeria was or how
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Lagos was, uh, specifically, was seen through the eyes of a kid.
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But going back as a so adult, um, I just got to see things differently.
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And some of my assumptions about just the state in which I thought
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I left Nigeria, uh, completely blown away. Um,
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everything has changed. Um,
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there's nothing you really want to access. Um,
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but there's nothing,
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there's nothing you can access in the West that you can't access in, in,
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in Lagos Nigeria, you know, it's so, um, cosmopolitan, you know, and,
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and, and also, um,
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it was where I had the initial idea for Marmalade, um, when I went in 20.
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[Nolan] I was, I was just gonna say,</v>
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because if you had certain assumptions and they were broken from that trip,
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that's also what you're achieving with Marmalade. Right. Is, uh,
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changing kind of like these brand images. Um,
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but b so before we get into that, or we can tie it into Marmalade, uh,
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what were some of these specific assumptions that, that were broken from this,
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from this visit?
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[Tola Alade] So, uh, first one was, um, it's unsafe. Um,</v>
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you know, going to Africa, going to anywhere in Africa, you know, is unsafe.
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You're gonna need, you know, a constant, uh, bodyguard or, or, you know,
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or some sort of police or someone following you around just in case something
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happens. Um, that was nonsense, uh, because first of all, um,
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I've never felt safer anywhere else than I felt, you know, when I was in Lagos.
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Um, another assumption is, um, the, you know,
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just basic things like, you know, the water wasn't gonna be good enough or the,
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the, the internet wasn't gonna be, you know, as quick as I want it to be.
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And those things were absolutely like the complete opposite.
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And finally, you know, it, it,
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it was just the types of people I met
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whilst I was out there, you know, um, I've worked in the creative space, um,
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for the last 12 years and, you know,
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I've worked with some really amazing people over here in the UK as well as,
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you know, uh, abroad in the US and just being able to,
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to meet people of, you know, very similar caliber as well as in some cases,
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probably even a lot better, um, was just mind blowing for me.
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And it just got me excited about what was happening, especially in the creative,
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um, entrepreneurial space.
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[Nolan] Now, do you think, uh,</v>
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most of these assumptions exist because how it's still portrayed in some
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mainstream media? Or do you think it's more historical? Like,
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do you think there just have been a lot of sudden changes in the past five years
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or the past 10 years?
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[Tola Alade] I think it's a mixture of both. Uh, and I'll say three things. I think one,</v>
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um, of course there, there's still a very much, you know, um,
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I would say a mixture of incomplete or negative sort of perception of
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Africa and who Africans are in general, um,
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in Western mainstream media. Um,
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some of that is just due to lack of ignorance and some of that, um,
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I would say in some cases, uh, I don't know how much of that is,
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is, is, you know, is intentional. But, um,
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I like to focus more on the things we can actually control.
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Then the second thing is, um, I think as, as, as, as Africans or, or as, um,
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Africa as a continent, um, we, we have lot,
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lots of rich stories, but our ability to tell these stories,
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you know, in a way that can resonate not just with ourselves,
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but with the wider world, I think there's a huge, huge, uh,
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area that needs to be explored. Um, and then the,
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the final thing I think I've observed as well is, um,
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they are distribution channels that's never used to exist, um, 10 year, 10,
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20 years ago. That exists now.
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So it's making it a lot easier for information to flow and for people to,
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to access, you know, uh,
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information that they would've maybe relied on certain traditional media,
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um, in order to access. But now thanks to social media, thanks to, you know,
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influencers, thanks to, uh, you know, people like yourself,
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uh, you know,
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being able to establish platforms and actually just go direct to the people
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that you wanna reach.
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So I think these three factors have kind of contributed to where we are and
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not where we've been where we are. And hopefully where, where we're gonna go is,
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is, is very exciting.
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[Nolan] Yeah. So from, from what I know from the Marmalade Collective,</v>
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those three factors that you just went over,
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I think the Marmalade Collective is doing an excellent job,
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an outstanding job using these three factors in, in the work. Uh,
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now for the listeners who aren't familiar, can you just, uh,
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tell us a little bit more about the Marmalade Collective?
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[Tola Alade] For sure, for sure. Um, you know, when I,</v>
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when I had the idea for Marmalade um, I,
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there there's something about, um, just, just you, um,
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I listened to a, a guy called, uh, Jordan Peterson. Um,
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I listened to all of his lectures and, you know, uh,
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he's a clinical psychologist and it's just amazing.
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[Nolan] It’s funny you brought him up,</v>
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cuz I have some notes here for the interview that we're gonna get into.
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[Tola Alade] Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna, um,</v>
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and he, there's this, there's this phrase he says all the time that sometimes,
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um, we think we have ideas, but sometimes ideas have us. Um,
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and I strongly believe Marmalade as a concept, uh,
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as an idea that's had me for a long time. You know,
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cause I'm very fascinated and very interested in, um,
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cultural diversity. I'm very in interested in identity,
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and I'm also very interested in, you know, uh, um, self-expression because, um,
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I believe we are in videos and we are,
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we should be allowed to express who we are in wherever we are at manifests.
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So that's, that's a long way to say initially, um, I had that,
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I felt something, um, I didn't know what it was.
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I didn't know how it was meant brought to life. And then a short while later,
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um, the, the, the,
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the sort of foundation for Marmalade came off the back of, um, this narrative,
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which is one,
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a very strong belief on what do I believe in terms of
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what do I believe of the world? And it came from this line.
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We believe Africa's stories and its culture,
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its most valuable assets. Um, some people would say, no,
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it's natural resources. Some people say it's, you know,
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a whole bunch of different things. But in my opinion, um, these stories and,
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and African culture, you know,
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is what we've been able to successfully export to the rest of the world.
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And also, um, it's also one,
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one aspect of af you know, of Africa, Africans that, um,
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benefits everyone from the top to the bottom. You know,
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everyone can access music, everyone can access films, everyone can access,
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you know, different things. So,
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so Marmalade initially started out where, from this really strong belief,
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uh, and then, um, I then moved into a next phase, uh, um,
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where, you know, what's, what's opposing this belief, you know,
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in the actual wider world. And I realized, you know,
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it's just this incomplete perception of African
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and African culture in the mainstream.
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And it's not because there aren't people trying or there aren't,
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there aren't enough, uh, uh, um, you know, there aren't enough websites or,
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you know, or blogs trying or, or,
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or difference of mediums trying. Um,
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but it's because a lot of the content that's been created, um,
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first of all aren't as premium as I feel they need to be. And then secondly,
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um,
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They aren’t brought to life in a way that really resonates with, um,
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people that are non-black,
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non or non-African. Um,
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so long and shortest Marmalade is a digital media company. Uh,
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and we are bringing Africa's culture and stories to life in a way that
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resonates not just with Africans, but with, with a global mainstream audience.
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Um,
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and we call that that sort of intersection of African audiences and mainstream
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audiences. Um, we're calling that the new mainstream. Um,
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so we're a mission to basically build out this new mainstream, um, and,
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and really, um, spread the influence or the,
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the understanding of Ashman culture, uh, to that global mainstream.
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[Nolan] Excellent. Now, um, I want to make sure we return to the economic side,</v>
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and that's gonna tie into Jordan Peterson. But what I found very interesting,
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what you just said is, um, how do we bring some of these African stories?
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And of course, stories and brands can be synonymous in some cases,
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especially when the, with the type of work that you do. Um,
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so how,
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what are some things that you do to reach the, the white audience,
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right? Like, people like me?
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What are some ways that you're doing so to make sure these stories connect to a
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broader audience and don't just stay within Africa?
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[Tola Alade] For sure. Um, first of all, um,</v>
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it's the ability to understand, um,
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to understand data. So, um, I, lot of what we do is very data driven.
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Um, but initially we were trying to do things the, the sort of, um,
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the expected way, which is, you know,
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you have an idea and then you just go on social media and start creating,
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you know, original video content or even original podcast, you know,
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distributing. But we very quickly realized, um,
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there's already really amazing content out there and we just don't wanna add
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to, to, you know, you know,
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we don't wanna end up duplicating what's already exists,
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but there's a lack of curation. There's a lack of finding, um,
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finding the best content. Um, you know, you as a, you know, as a,
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as a, you know,
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as a subscriber or you as a so not interested in African culture,
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you wouldn't know where to look. So we then initially, we then decided,
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um, rather than create an original content, uh,
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we want to start by curating content. So at the moment,
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we have a newsletter, uh, that we publish every week.
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And in that newsletter, we basically, um, create like a,
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like a summary of five or six of the best stories in that week, um,
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or in, sorry, in the previous week, um, around African stories,
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uh, about news of, of, um, Africans or, or sort of African culture.
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Um.
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[Nolan] And this includes entrepreneurs, musicians, um,</v>
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I've, I've seen that you do a lot with fashion and style as well, right?
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[Tola Alade] Yeah. So we focus on, we focus on music, we focus on fashion, we focus on food,</v>
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and we also focus on travel as well.
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And we focus on these things because they are very experiential,
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and also they are a very quick way into, you know,
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trying out,
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trying not trying out food from a different culture doesn't require you to first
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of all speak the language or understand the language. You just have,
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you just have to be, you know, interested. Uh, same with music as well,
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you know, they are, um, lately I've been, I've been listening to Anova,
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Dutch rap. Um, I don't understand, you know,
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a single word or what's been spoken, but I've.
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[Nolan] If you need a translator, I'll translate it for you. I, speak Dutch, so
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[Tola Alade] OH, Yes.
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Yes. So, I, I, I've been listening and I came,</v>
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I came across this through someone on Instagram who's been listening a lot
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lately as well. And so for me, it's, it's focusing on these things that are,
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that are very, that are easier to, that, that are, that's,
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that creates kind of like an inroad, you know, into, into African culture. And,
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you know, leave out the very complicated subjects such as, you know,
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religion such as, you know, politics such as, you know, conversations around,
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you know, sex and gender, and, you know, those, those conversations, um,
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yes, they, yes, they are very useful. But, um,
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at Marmalade we want to focus on the positive end of Marmalade and
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basically avoid things that, that, that, um, that's
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that sort of, um,
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that keep people apart or that divide people.
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We actually wanna bring people together, irrespective of wherever you're from.
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So unity is, is something that that's, that's very, uh, important to me,
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especially in a world that's very divisive.
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[Nolan] Divided. Yeah. Uh, well, that, that's interesting because some,</v>
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sometimes that's a very difficult thing to achieve, right? Because, um,
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some people might end up being political without knowing it,
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with their branding, be because they want to unify, right? Like,
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if you look at a lot of the movies nowadays, um,
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they always make sure that there's a more diverse, um, cast,
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um, cast, sorry. Um, right.
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They make sure that there's this many gay people, this many transgender people,
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this many people for, uh, Asian people. Right? Um, now by doing that,
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even if you just do it for, let's say a commercial, right?
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And you're not making a political statement, you kind of are making
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A certain socIo-political statement. Yeah. Right? And, um,
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from a lot of content that I've seen on marmalade,
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I don't think you do make these political statements just as you said, right?
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You just focus on this enjoyment of bringing people together.
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Um, and I, I think that's excellent. But one question I do have, like,
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uh, for me, I've, I've only been to Morocco. I don't, I haven't been to, uh,
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many, many countries in Africa. And I,
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I really want to go and I have,
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I'm well-read enough,
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and I know enough people that I do have a very positive image about Africa
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as well. Um,
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but one thing that always throws me a little bit is looking at the stats around
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politicians and the amount of, um, well,
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antigay rhetoric that there is, right?
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Anti L G B T had a rhetoric. Um, is,
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is there anything that marmalade is trying to do to show that? Well,
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I don't know what, what the truth is is, is it as bad as,
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as they say, like, in, when I look at the statistics, right? Like,
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and of course the statistics, you have to be careful,
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but you look at the amount of people in Nigeria that believe that being
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gay should be a crime, right? And it's, it's quite high. I have to double check,
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but I think it was over 50%.
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And you see that this is written in the laws.
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Do you think that branding can change this perception if branding should
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change this perception? Um, is it true? Is it not true?
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Yeah.
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[Tola Alade] Sure. Um, first of all, uh, that is a very,</v>
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very complex topic to, of course, the, the, the question is quite simple,
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but the what is attached to that, you know, uh,
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it goes way back and it goes, you know, it goes into different strands of,
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of things we could explore. And of course, you know, I,
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if we are at three hours to, you know, chat, uh, I'll go deeper, you know, into,
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into what my sort personal views are, uh, you know, about, uh, um,
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about those subjects. But as I said in the beginning, um,
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we're, I'm deeply, deeply fascinated, you know,
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by self-expression and just disbelief that, you know,
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we are individuals and we are allowed to be who we are. Um,
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and I think that's, that's something, you know, uh, uh, um, we definitely,
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you know, uh, you know, push in terms of how we, in terms of how we are,
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how we're, how we're portraying ourselves, um, we are,
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we are definitely a, a, um,
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I would say it's definitely an area that we don't,
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it's a very, it's a very, very, very huge, so, uh,
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uh, la uh, um, sort of, um, um,
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landmine in terms of just, just, you know, different views and the different,
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you know, opinions. So, um, I would say those, those sorts of topics, uh,
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we definitely don't focus on those. Not, not because we're, we're, we're,
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we are, um, I guess concerned about doing so.Iit’s just,
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it's just very, very complex to, to gain to basically. But, um,
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I'm aware of those stats again, as you said. Um, I don't know what those,
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I don't know the, the basis of what those stats are, but ultimately, uh,
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everyone is allowed to be who they want to be and, and, and,
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and express themselves, um, how they want to express themselves as well.
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[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. Um, alright,</v>
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well then to bring it back to the Jordan Peterson [laughter] and,
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uh, with the economy. Um,
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so when I was preparing for this, I was reading a little bit about,
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um,
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why certain countries in Africa might be doing better than others economically.
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And, uh, just looking at the history, why, of course, in many African countries,
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there is, uh, quite a bit of a lower GDP right, than, um, than in some other,
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or that in some western countries. And of course,
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there's always the, the argument that, um, like I think it's the economist,
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uh, Nathan Nunn, right?
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He says that one of the key factors underlying Africa's uneven economic
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development, um, is from the unexpected lin, uh,
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lingering after effects of the slave trade, right?
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And I was watching this video with Jordan Peterson and, um,
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uh, Magatte Wade. Do you know who Magatte Wade is?
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[Tola Alade] No.</v>
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[Nolan] Okay. So she's, she's a, um, an African woman, um,</v>
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I forget which country she's from, but she,
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she's an entrepreneur and she,
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she has this conversation with Jordan Peterson,
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and she thinks that there's way too much, um,
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focus on this idea that the slave trade is the reason that, um,
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Africa still doesn't have,
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or some African countries don't have this economic development. And she says,
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no, that's bullshit.
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It's corrupt politicians and there needs to be more better economic regulation.
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And she believes that it's,
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it's what's going to help Africa is a real focus on free trade,
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right? And she brings up some of the examples of countries that are doing well.
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And it has nothing to do with, um,
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history of colonization or anything like that.
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It really has to do with what they're doing now, who they're voting for now,
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what kind of businesses are coming into play. Um,
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but on the other side, when I read like Nunn’s arguments about, uh,
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how much slavery and how much the colonization has affected, uh,
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Africa to this day, I think there are definitely both sides.
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But I was just wondering what your opinion is about this, because of course,
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you are an entrepreneur and, uh, obviously very interested in, in, um,
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building the economy
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[Tola Alade] So for sure. Um, again, uh, thank you for a great question.</v>
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Um, so I'll start with, um, again,
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what are my personal beliefs on the world? Uh, first of all, my, i,
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I believe hugely in, in individual responsibility, which is, um,
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you have to figure out what you can do to solve, um,
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to solve waivers of issues that you see in the world. Um,
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if there are attends that call out, that, that,
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that seek secure attention constantly, um, then there's something in there.
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There's something in there to be explored. Um,
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so that's always my guiding principle in terms of everything that I go into
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colonization, I think in general, um,
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of course it's quite an emotive topic. Um, you know, that, that, um,
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many people have, you know, given their, their,
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their sort of views on what they think happened, what they know happened,
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how they think that that sort of impacted where we are today.
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And you can't discount, um, the,
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the sort of impact of, of,
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of what's the 400 years of
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slavery, uh, what that basically, you know, uh, uh, um, what that sort or,
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or what that sort , um,
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how that has potentially, you know, affected where Africa is, uh, um,
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as a continent. But again, I believe, um,
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that's something that did happen. And also, um, it's
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colonization, you know, happened to not just Africans. Um,
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everyone at different stages have sort of been through, uh, um, that.
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[Nolan] That's exactly what she says in the interview as well. She says, newsflash,</v>
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it's, it, it's part of human history, right? Europeans,
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were enslaving other Europeans, and, uh.
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[Tola Alade] Yeah, we, we, we just to be the most recent ones, um,</v>
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you can go as far back as the, you know, as the Mongols, you know, and, and,
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and, and, and just, just, um,
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every continent or every sort of, uh,
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superpower in the world or or or country continent, you know,
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have sort of been through different phases of this.
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I think where we are right now, we need to recognize the abilities and the, the,
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the access that we do have, and literally just start solving our, you know,
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our own problems. Um, I've chosen to focus more on the media side of things,
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which is to, to to, to focus on how do you shape,
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how do you change perception and how do you shape perception in a more positive
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way? And, you know,
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we are basically starting here and who knows what this would be in five years,
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or who knows what this would be in 10, you know, 20 years. Um, so for me, uh,
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what happened, happened, that's the way I personally look at things. Um, my mom,
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uh, is a, you know, very entrepreneurial Nigerian woman. Uh,
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a lot of my, my sort of passion for building businesses actually, you know, uh,
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uh, comes from her. And she's never, for once,
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we've never had a conversation about slavery. We've, because first of all,
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yes, she's aware of it,
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but I don't think she lived her life under the shadow of, you know, slavery and,
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and, and, you know, always having to make, you know,
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connections about everything that happens to you presently,
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back to those things. So for me, um, I've always felt, you know,
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the,
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the emotional attachment to slavery has always been something, uh, uh, uh,
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really pushed and promoted probably more by African Americans,
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uh, because, um, they, they, you know, there's, there's this,
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there's this, um, and this is,
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this is my own way of quoting this.
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There's this strong lack of,
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lack of, you know, a rooted identity, I would say, so to speak,
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in terms of who are you, you know? And, and, and, and, you know, you know,
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and if your sense of identity is not grounded
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properly, then you know, it, it,
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it leads to some of the conversations that we have, you know,
439
00:27:48.630 --> 00:27:53.570
over social media. So for me personally, um, I understand the past,
440
00:27:53.570 --> 00:27:55.690
I understand the present and, you know,
441
00:27:55.790 --> 00:28:00.770
I'm more excited about the future and how the things we
442
00:28:00.770 --> 00:28:02.930
have access to and the tools we have access to,
443
00:28:02.930 --> 00:28:06.810
and the understanding we have of the, of the wider world, um,
444
00:28:06.810 --> 00:28:09.570
where this is gonna lead us to. Cuz um,
445
00:28:09.570 --> 00:28:13.850
that's what you should be more concerned about, um, as opposed to what has been,
446
00:28:13.850 --> 00:28:16.770
cuz what has been has been, you can't change that. Um,
447
00:28:16.770 --> 00:28:18.770
but where you are gonna be, um,
448
00:28:18.860 --> 00:28:23.850
is where is what we need to invest time and resources into shaping right now.
449
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:28.050
[Nolan] Definitely. Like, of course, you to understand where you're going,</v>
450
00:28:28.210 --> 00:28:31.050
you do have to understand where you have been.
451
00:28:31.050 --> 00:28:36.010
But I think sometimes this conversation just focuses too much on
452
00:28:36.010 --> 00:28:39.620
where we have been and it just creates, um,
453
00:28:40.290 --> 00:28:44.860
a greater divide sometimes, right. Rather than focusing on the future,
454
00:28:44.860 --> 00:28:49.300
rather than focusing on our similarities rather than focusing like what you're
455
00:28:49.300 --> 00:28:50.080
doing with your project,
456
00:28:50.080 --> 00:28:53.580
the ways that we can work together in the ways that we can help each other
457
00:28:53.580 --> 00:28:56.860
rather than focusing on all the horrible things we did in the history,
458
00:28:56.860 --> 00:29:01.660
which of course, of course is crucial to know. But it shouldn't be the,
459
00:29:01.660 --> 00:29:04.020
the center of the conversation. Yeah. In, in my view.
460
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:08.260
[Tola Alade] And just to mention as well, Nolan, that that's what really drew me to,</v>
461
00:29:08.260 --> 00:29:10.700
you know, uh, really wanting to, you know,
462
00:29:10.700 --> 00:29:13.340
have this conversation with you as well, which is, um,
463
00:29:13.370 --> 00:29:17.220
just even the name of your, your platform Without Borders.
464
00:29:17.250 --> 00:29:20.340
I believe that's where we are going in the world. Uh,
465
00:29:20.560 --> 00:29:23.420
the world is becoming more borderless, uh, and, you know,
466
00:29:23.420 --> 00:29:27.900
people are going to converge over more over, you know,
467
00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:32.700
mutual interests and more over experiences as opposed to, you know,
468
00:29:32.890 --> 00:29:36.860
this is where I'm from or, you know, or, or, or, you know, skin color or,
469
00:29:36.860 --> 00:29:41.800
you know, race. I think people are going to move and merge in ways that, uh,
470
00:29:42.080 --> 00:29:46.480
probably we haven't seen, uh, over the last maybe, you know, uh, uh, um,
471
00:29:46.710 --> 00:29:50.560
a hundred years. And that's what's happening right now. So this,
472
00:29:51.830 --> 00:29:56.800
This divisive conversations that happen in the, in the general world, you know,
473
00:29:56.810 --> 00:30:00.360
uh, again, I understand them, I understand them, um,
474
00:30:00.520 --> 00:30:04.120
but you can choose what you do, uh, um, moving forward.
475
00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:08.960
And we want a world where, you know, people are, are truly unified. And,
476
00:30:09.260 --> 00:30:13.170
you know, there's a phrase that I use all the time, which is unity,
477
00:30:13.170 --> 00:30:17.770
not uniformity. Um, we don't want to be, you know, boxed into different camps,
478
00:30:17.770 --> 00:30:22.250
which is, you know, black people and you know, Dutch people. And it's like, no,
479
00:30:22.250 --> 00:30:26.450
we're, we're just humans. Of course, we're humans with, you know,
480
00:30:26.450 --> 00:30:30.930
experiences and, and strong ties to our heritage and strong ties to our culture.
481
00:30:31.350 --> 00:30:36.170
And the beauty is seeing those cultures, you know, basically,
482
00:30:36.170 --> 00:30:39.850
you know, uh, uh, uh, um, um, spread beyond the actual,
483
00:30:41.040 --> 00:30:45.730
beyond the geographical borders of, you know, of these,
484
00:30:45.740 --> 00:30:46.573
of these places.
485
00:30:46.620 --> 00:30:50.690
So that's what really gets me excited about what you're doing and these stories
486
00:30:50.690 --> 00:30:51.250
that you're telling.
487
00:30:51.250 --> 00:30:53.170
[Nolan] As well, thank you, thank you. And that,</v>
488
00:30:53.170 --> 00:30:57.850
that's is it is my goal with withoutborders, right? Um, and I, I,
489
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:01.530
what did you say? Sorry. Uh, instead of focusing on uniformity,
490
00:31:01.530 --> 00:31:02.930
we should be focusing on unity.
491
00:31:03.100 --> 00:31:04.770
[Tola Alade] So unity not uniformity.</v>
492
00:31:04.770 --> 00:31:07.970
[Nolan] Yeah. Uniformity. And instead of putting people in boxes. And Yeah.</v>
493
00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:11.890
That kind of makes me think, like when I went to university, um, well,
494
00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:14.330
I studied, uh, English and psychology,
495
00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:17.330
so I had a lot of classes in the,
496
00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:22.330
in the arts [laughter] and, uh, they started talking a lot about critical theory,
497
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:27.280
right? And, uh, checking your privilege and everything like that. And, um,
498
00:31:27.340 --> 00:31:31.560
I'm very well aware of my privilege and I understand that I've had it easier
499
00:31:31.560 --> 00:31:32.393
than many people.
500
00:31:32.740 --> 00:31:37.440
But what I found interesting about a lot of this critical theory is their goal
501
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:42.160
as well is, is to unify, right? And to, to bring people together and,
502
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:43.680
and create more equality.
503
00:31:44.360 --> 00:31:49.220
But then you have this intersectionality and they look at all these little
504
00:31:49.260 --> 00:31:52.700
boxes, right? You have to, okay, if if you're this skin color,
505
00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:55.820
then your privilege is here. If your parents had this much money,
506
00:31:55.930 --> 00:31:59.860
your privilege is here. If your, what your gender is,
507
00:31:59.860 --> 00:32:01.420
what your sexual orientation is,
508
00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:04.900
and they just keep breaking down people into boxes. Yeah.
509
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:09.620
And to me that that's not a way to make the world more equal
510
00:32:09.720 --> 00:32:14.380
and unified at all. Um, yeah. And I'm a pretty left leaning guy, right.
511
00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:17.380
I don't know where politics are. It doesn't really matter for me. Like I,
512
00:32:17.380 --> 00:32:19.820
I know Jordan Peterson's a pretty right leaning guy.
513
00:32:19.820 --> 00:32:23.540
There are things I don't agree with him with. There are things I, I find, um,
514
00:32:23.820 --> 00:32:28.740
very interesting. Yeah. What he says, right? Um, but the main thing,
515
00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:31.660
whether left right, which is a false dichotomy anyways,
516
00:32:31.910 --> 00:32:36.490
is I don't think we should be focusing so much on these little boxes. I mean,
517
00:32:36.490 --> 00:32:38.850
they're good to be aware of, but isn't, again, it.
518
00:32:38.850 --> 00:32:42.120
should, should not be the center of the conversation. </v>
519
00:32:42.120 --> 00:32:45.120
[Tola Alade] Yeah. And for me, you know, it's, it's, um, it, it's, uh,
520
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:50.100
you have to, you have to think critically as a human being, you know,
521
00:32:50.250 --> 00:32:55.120
just these boxes that have been set aside to say, Hey, you know, are you left?
522
00:32:55.120 --> 00:32:57.080
Are you right? You know, they, they, they are,
523
00:32:57.080 --> 00:33:02.000
they are designed to produce a certain outcome. And so for me,
524
00:33:02.470 --> 00:33:06.620
I approach everything with critical thinking, which is, yes,
525
00:33:07.090 --> 00:33:11.500
I can engage with a subject I don't agree with. I still hold my,
526
00:33:11.570 --> 00:33:16.100
I still hold my, my, my, my views, or if I see errors in my way of thinking,
527
00:33:16.100 --> 00:33:20.940
you know, adapt that or, or, or, or sort sort of fix that. So for me,
528
00:33:20.990 --> 00:33:25.620
uh, yes, I listen to Jordan Pied, uh, um, there are things that, you know,
529
00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:28.100
he definitely says that I definitely don't agree with,
530
00:33:28.110 --> 00:33:30.420
or I would approach in a slightly different way,
531
00:33:31.080 --> 00:33:35.300
but I listen to him in a very critical, in a very,
532
00:33:35.980 --> 00:33:40.400
you know, with, with with, with my, with my mind switched on and, and, and,
533
00:33:40.620 --> 00:33:43.560
and not just him, a whole bunch of different people. You know, I,
534
00:33:43.560 --> 00:33:47.920
I enjoy interviews with, um, Joe Rogan cuz you know, I,
535
00:33:47.950 --> 00:33:51.640
I love long form subjects or, or long form, um,
536
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:55.560
platforms where you can basically speak on a particular subject for, you know,
537
00:33:55.560 --> 00:33:58.320
two, three hours. Um, that's why some of the,
538
00:33:58.320 --> 00:34:00.760
the things that you brought up previously, um,
539
00:34:00.760 --> 00:34:03.840
there are things that definitely I can go into, but again,
540
00:34:03.840 --> 00:34:05.800
some things you just can't explain in 10 minutes.
541
00:34:06.390 --> 00:34:10.400
Some things you can't explain in 20 minutes, sometimes it needs three hours,
542
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:12.520
sometimes it needs three weeks, you know,
543
00:34:12.570 --> 00:34:17.330
of one hour conversations every two days, you know? Um, so yeah.
544
00:34:17.330 --> 00:34:20.210
So I, um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I I just think this,
545
00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:25.050
there's enough information out there for us to, to be able to, you know,
546
00:34:25.050 --> 00:34:29.830
think critically and also make our minds up, um, on, you know,
547
00:34:29.830 --> 00:34:33.950
what we, what, what our point of view is on, on the world. Um,
548
00:34:33.950 --> 00:34:38.590
because people like your Elon Musks and your, your, um, you know,
549
00:34:38.590 --> 00:34:39.910
what they, what, what,
550
00:34:39.910 --> 00:34:44.330
what you see manifest through everything they do is their point of view.
551
00:34:44.330 --> 00:34:48.570
You have to have a point of view on life. And, um,
552
00:34:49.060 --> 00:34:53.650
my point of view on African culture is what I'm trying to manifest through
553
00:34:53.890 --> 00:34:57.210
Marmalade. Um, yeah.
554
00:34:57.210 --> 00:35:00.410
Hence why when you ask me initially, you know, what is Marmalade? You know,
555
00:35:00.480 --> 00:35:04.330
I always start from belief, I always start from belief, which is,
556
00:35:04.330 --> 00:35:08.560
what do you believe about the world for the first year of running Marmalade
557
00:35:08.560 --> 00:35:12.000
between 2019 and 20, end of 2020? Um,
558
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.610
I didn't even call it a digital media company because you don't know where it
559
00:35:16.610 --> 00:35:18.530
is. When, when you, when you,
560
00:35:18.720 --> 00:35:22.290
when you give birth to something off the back of a belief,
561
00:35:22.290 --> 00:35:24.610
all you have is just that belief.
562
00:35:24.790 --> 00:35:27.370
And you have a mission in terms of what you're trying to achieve,
563
00:35:27.370 --> 00:35:30.090
but you don't know what that is. So, you know,
564
00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:32.570
I would have conversations with people and you could see,
565
00:35:32.570 --> 00:35:37.560
you can almost mentally see them present these boxes and trying to ram it
566
00:35:37.560 --> 00:35:42.040
into one of those boxes. And they would ask me, Bob, I've heard all you've said,
567
00:35:42.040 --> 00:35:46.040
but is it this? And I'll go, no, we're on a mission to do X, Y, Z.
568
00:35:46.040 --> 00:35:48.120
And I just repeated that and repeated that.
569
00:35:48.120 --> 00:35:51.040
And people that are interested will draw closer to that.
570
00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:54.880
And people that are just trying to get to, you know, um,
571
00:35:55.350 --> 00:35:59.700
whoever sort of boxes that, that have prepared for you, um, you,
572
00:35:59.700 --> 00:36:02.940
you can just see them get frustrated with, you know, just tell me,
573
00:36:02.950 --> 00:36:07.740
is it an agency? Is it, you know, is it a platform? Is it—decide—I don't know.
574
00:36:08.310 --> 00:36:13.010
Cuz it's a newborn baby with not a potential, and I don't know what that is.
575
00:36:13.010 --> 00:36:13.330
And,
576
00:36:13.330 --> 00:36:18.330
and I'm going to explore that through how it bumps against the real
577
00:36:18.330 --> 00:36:21.650
world. And, and eventually we're gonna figure out what this thing is,
578
00:36:21.650 --> 00:36:24.010
and we're in a really good place now with.
579
00:36:24.010 --> 00:36:24.600
them.
580
00:36:24.600 --> 00:36:28.650
[Nolan] I think that's not only an excellent way to think about brands and companies,
581
00:36:28.670 --> 00:36:31.090
but also just people in the world in general, right?
582
00:36:31.090 --> 00:36:34.010
Like rather than just thinking about putting things in everything into
583
00:36:34.010 --> 00:36:37.370
categories. And I think that kind of stems from academia, right? If you,
584
00:36:37.660 --> 00:36:40.810
if you're an academic, you kind of need to put things in,
585
00:36:41.020 --> 00:36:45.610
in categories to be able to, to study it, right? Yeah. Um, but that's also,
586
00:36:45.610 --> 00:36:47.210
again, the beauty with podcasts, right?
587
00:36:47.220 --> 00:36:50.170
We don't need to be putting everything in— on a paper.
588
00:36:50.170 --> 00:36:54.610
We can just have these free discussions and they can go different ways. And, um,
589
00:36:54.610 --> 00:36:56.770
the same with a brand or with a company.
590
00:36:56.770 --> 00:37:00.210
Especially if you have a clear objective and a clear message.
591
00:37:00.590 --> 00:37:01.770
[Tola Alade] Yes. Yeah. </v>
592
00:37:02.680 --> 00:37:07.070
[Nolan] Right? Um, that was always interesting for, like, for me with, uh, identity. I,</v>
593
00:37:07.530 --> 00:37:12.230
one reason I have without borders is because my identity is not tied to
594
00:37:12.230 --> 00:37:14.950
geography. I mean, I was born in Chile, moved to Belgium,
595
00:37:15.020 --> 00:37:18.830
then it went to Canada, now I'm in Spain.
596
00:37:19.140 --> 00:37:21.390
I've never felt like, okay,
597
00:37:21.390 --> 00:37:22.223
[Tola Alade] truly global citizen.</v>
598
00:37:22.590 --> 00:37:26.630
[Nolan] [laughter]. Yeah. Yeah. Third culture kid, global citizen for sure.</v>
599
00:37:27.600 --> 00:37:31.110
Um, and I understand when people say like,
600
00:37:31.110 --> 00:37:34.630
I don't know really where I come from, and I definitely struggle with it still,
601
00:37:34.720 --> 00:37:36.110
uh, again, better and better at it,
602
00:37:36.110 --> 00:37:41.070
but it's a lifelong struggle that really having your identity attached
603
00:37:41.070 --> 00:37:41.850
to geography.
604
00:37:41.850 --> 00:37:46.720
But I think with projects like yours and just where the world is heading right
605
00:37:46.720 --> 00:37:47.030
now,
606
00:37:47.030 --> 00:37:51.840
people who don't have their identity attached to geography or location
607
00:37:52.340 --> 00:37:56.960
are going to start to find a community that is just beyond borders.
608
00:37:57.260 --> 00:37:58.440
[Tola Alade] Yes.
609
00:37:58.900 --> 00:38:02.600
Yes. Yes. Um, and this is what excites me. You know, when I,</v>
610
00:38:03.600 --> 00:38:07.730
I've got manifest, um, I've got a manifesto. Um, I,
611
00:38:07.730 --> 00:38:10.090
I think I shared that with you, but I'm not sure, uh, Bob,
612
00:38:10.090 --> 00:38:11.450
I'll share that with you. Um.
613
00:38:11.450 --> 00:38:12.450
[Nolan] I ha I have it here actually. </v>
614
00:38:12.690 --> 00:38:16.450
[Tola Alade] Um, and for me, you know, I just walk up one night and just thought,</v>
615
00:38:16.450 --> 00:38:21.090
you know, what, what do I see in the future? And a lot of what you've just said,
616
00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:24.130
um, now are things that, you know, I,
617
00:38:25.450 --> 00:38:30.260
I don't have any concrete data evidence of, you know, some of those things,
618
00:38:30.260 --> 00:38:33.660
but it's just what I believe of where the world is going. And,
619
00:38:33.660 --> 00:38:37.680
and you are absolutely spot on. Um, you know, we are going to see,
620
00:38:40.050 --> 00:38:44.050
there are people I've come across and there are people living in Lagos,
621
00:38:44.050 --> 00:38:46.450
in Nigeria and Tanzania in South Africa,
622
00:38:46.590 --> 00:38:51.170
and that are by race. They're not from those places.
623
00:38:51.750 --> 00:38:55.970
But it resonates so deeply with those cultures. And you can't,
624
00:38:56.110 --> 00:38:57.610
you can't take that away from them.
625
00:38:57.610 --> 00:39:00.730
You can't say because you are a certain skin color. You know, you, you,
626
00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:04.810
you're not allowed to, you know, if, if that's what you resonate with,
627
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:08.330
then that's what you resonate with, you know? Yeah. Um.
628
00:39:09.940 --> 00:39:10.773
[Nolan] Yeah.</v>
629
00:39:10.860 --> 00:39:14.950
[Tola Alade] I've had conversations, you know, about, you know, culture appropriation,</v>
630
00:39:14.950 --> 00:39:18.390
and I hate that word so much, you know, I, I understand what.
631
00:39:18.390 --> 00:39:19.830
[Nolan] It means. Oh, that's interesting. So.</v>
632
00:39:19.830 --> 00:39:23.030
[Tola Alade] Okay. I understand what it means, but, you know, sometimes I think there's a,</v>
633
00:39:23.030 --> 00:39:27.910
there's a, it's, it's a sliding scale. Yes, there are things that can appropriated.
634
00:39:28.250 --> 00:39:31.920
but there's also appreciation. We hardly,
635
00:39:32.600 --> 00:39:35.390
there's very few conversations about appreciation.
636
00:39:35.390 --> 00:39:39.790
And what I'm starting to do with Marmalade is highlights
637
00:39:40.360 --> 00:39:45.070
aspects of African culture that's been embraced by people that are non-African
638
00:39:45.070 --> 00:39:49.270
or non-black, because that's, that's, that's exciting to me.
639
00:39:49.270 --> 00:39:53.790
That's exciting. Things that I'm, I've grown up with to see someone else,
640
00:39:53.790 --> 00:39:55.310
you know, embrace that and, and,
641
00:39:55.310 --> 00:40:00.190
and really want to genuinely know everything they can about it
642
00:40:00.190 --> 00:40:01.390
is what really excites me.
643
00:40:02.390 --> 00:40:03.920
[Nolan] Okay. So that, that's interesting me,</v>
644
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:07.160
and it kind of ties into something you mentioned earlier when it comes to
645
00:40:07.410 --> 00:40:09.000
African Americans, right.
646
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:13.040
Where they might have different views on some of these things. Yeah. Um,
647
00:40:13.150 --> 00:40:17.200
when it comes to like, white dudes with dreadlocks, [laughter] like appropriation,
648
00:40:17.200 --> 00:40:21.600
like that, I've only heard, um, yeah.
649
00:40:21.600 --> 00:40:25.920
North Americans complain about those types of things and saying like, oh no, if,
650
00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:30.280
if a white dude has, uh, [laughter] dreadlocks it, it's racist. Yeah.
651
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:32.720
My opinion is not racist. It's just why.
652
00:40:32.720 --> 00:40:36.080
[Tola Alade] Put, I mean, I'm wearing a Norway hat, you know, and this is,</v>
653
00:40:36.080 --> 00:40:38.640
this is probably one of my favorite hats and, you know,
654
00:40:38.640 --> 00:40:43.440
award is to an exhibition, not a film screening, um, in December.
655
00:40:43.460 --> 00:40:47.500
And, you know, just off the back of the hat, some people were baffled.
656
00:40:47.500 --> 00:40:50.060
Why are you wearing a, like, you know, a hat from Norway?
657
00:40:50.270 --> 00:40:53.140
Because I love the hat. That's it. You know, it's not,
658
00:40:54.340 --> 00:40:59.290
sometimes we don't have to have clear rational as to
659
00:40:59.290 --> 00:41:03.610
why, you know, you wanna have dreadlocks, you just want to, and, and,
660
00:41:03.610 --> 00:41:08.210
and it's not taken away from anyone actually. It's, it's, it's just your, your,
661
00:41:08.260 --> 00:41:09.570
there's something about
662
00:41:11.240 --> 00:41:14.960
yourself and your identity and your, your, you know,
663
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:17.240
individuality that you are trying to express. And,
664
00:41:17.240 --> 00:41:21.630
and if it happens to come out in the form of you wearing
665
00:41:21.630 --> 00:41:25.360
dreadlocks Yeah, good on you. You know?
666
00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:28.370
[Nolan] Do you think like this whole thing,</v>
667
00:41:28.720 --> 00:41:33.680
especially in North America where you can't say this if you're this skin color,
668
00:41:33.680 --> 00:41:37.680
you can't say this if you're from here, you, uh, can't wear this.
669
00:41:37.930 --> 00:41:41.720
If you're from this culture, you can't, um, act like this.
670
00:41:41.720 --> 00:41:45.080
You can't sing this if you're from this culture or you're this race.
671
00:41:45.150 --> 00:41:48.400
[Tola Alade] I’ve got very strong vs. On this very, very strong vs.</v>
672
00:41:48.550 --> 00:41:52.120
[Nolan] Okay. I wanna know some of your views. I, I, I'm starting to get a hint at it,</v>
673
00:41:52.120 --> 00:41:53.080
but I'm also wondering,
674
00:41:53.080 --> 00:41:58.040
do you think this is very a North American way about talking about
675
00:41:58.310 --> 00:42:02.520
race issues and culture issues? Or do you think it exists everywhere?
676
00:42:02.520 --> 00:42:04.000
Because from my experience,
677
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.320
it seems like these conversations are so prevalent in North America and
678
00:42:08.850 --> 00:42:10.640
in the rest of the world. It's like,
679
00:42:10.640 --> 00:42:15.240
people don't care as much about like the language you use and stuff like that.
680
00:42:15.240 --> 00:42:17.280
If you say the word wrong, they might just be like, Hey man,
681
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:20.280
don't say that word around me. Whereas in North America, it's like,
682
00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:24.520
you're a racist if you say this or you are, um, uh, you're, you're a racist.
683
00:42:24.520 --> 00:42:26.640
If you have dreadlocks, you're blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
684
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:31.750
[Tola Alade] I think the, so I'm gonna zoom out. Um, you know, and, and,</v>
685
00:42:31.750 --> 00:42:35.310
and this is me trying to look at the forest, not the,
686
00:42:35.450 --> 00:42:38.150
not the individual trees. Cuz you know, they,
687
00:42:38.150 --> 00:42:41.830
they are lots of trees and lots of trees with different textures and different,
688
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:46.950
um, and except I'm a, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a AI bot. Uh,
689
00:42:46.950 --> 00:42:51.510
I can't fully access every single, you know, opinion on, on,
690
00:42:51.510 --> 00:42:56.390
on what people think on this spot. Zooming out, my observation is
691
00:43:00.460 --> 00:43:04.120
the conversation we're truly having, um, about these things.
692
00:43:05.180 --> 00:43:10.020
Literally just boils down to who can speak and
693
00:43:10.020 --> 00:43:11.780
who can't, who's allowed to,
694
00:43:11.780 --> 00:43:14.300
who's allowed to say this and who's not allowed to say this,
695
00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:18.300
who's allowed to control certain narratives and who's not allowed.
696
00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:22.270
And I fundamentally just oppose them. Um,
697
00:43:22.560 --> 00:43:26.710
we are freethinking human beings that should be able to, you know,
698
00:43:28.540 --> 00:43:33.350
should be able to explore the world and be allowed to make mistakes.
699
00:43:33.520 --> 00:43:37.590
Of course. Um, there are, there are things that, that, that, that we've,
700
00:43:39.010 --> 00:43:41.830
and I, and I, I'm, I'm kind of still wrestling with this too.
701
00:43:41.830 --> 00:43:45.070
There are things that we have agreed as society,
702
00:43:45.070 --> 00:43:48.750
and society means a collective of individuals who have agreed to live by certain
703
00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:52.310
principles and, and, and, you know, adhere to certain, you know, um, um,
704
00:43:53.420 --> 00:43:57.920
but for me, culture is evolving so much at such a pace where, you know,
705
00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:01.480
what was, what was okay, you know, last year,
706
00:44:01.550 --> 00:44:04.800
this year might not be cool or might not be acceptable.
707
00:44:05.250 --> 00:44:09.930
So ultimately how, what, what do you base,
708
00:44:10.120 --> 00:44:14.690
what do you base your, your, your sort of morals and your values on?
709
00:44:14.690 --> 00:44:18.690
You know, um, again, it, it, it just goes back to what type of person are you,
710
00:44:18.690 --> 00:44:21.930
and also what's the intention behind what you're looking to do in the world.
711
00:44:22.180 --> 00:44:27.010
So for me, um, part of the way you explore things, especially as a creative,
712
00:44:27.380 --> 00:44:31.520
um, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm very, very creative. Um, and,
713
00:44:31.520 --> 00:44:34.600
and I also happen to be very artistic too, so I can,
714
00:44:34.600 --> 00:44:38.120
I can express my ideas in design or in art. Um,
715
00:44:39.550 --> 00:44:41.720
part of the role of, you know, creatives, artists,
716
00:44:41.720 --> 00:44:45.640
and just human beings is you explored the world by making mistakes. By,
717
00:44:45.700 --> 00:44:49.440
you know, you, you, you cannot have fully fledged,
718
00:44:51.060 --> 00:44:55.170
um, formulated opinions that,
719
00:44:55.200 --> 00:45:00.130
that you, that that isn't going to offend someone somewhere. Or,
720
00:45:00.130 --> 00:45:04.090
or, or, or it's, it's part of the whole thing. And it's, it's, you know,
721
00:45:05.040 --> 00:45:09.950
as Jordan says, speak the truth. Just talk truthfully.
722
00:45:09.950 --> 00:45:14.620
That's it. Because if, if you are,
723
00:45:14.710 --> 00:45:18.340
if you are, if you are speaking truthfully, uh, you know, uh,
724
00:45:18.340 --> 00:45:21.020
then be ready to, to,
725
00:45:21.020 --> 00:45:25.380
to contend or wrestle with how that hits the world because, you know,
726
00:45:25.380 --> 00:45:28.060
that's coming from a genuine place. So for me, um,
727
00:45:28.330 --> 00:45:30.940
I never really worry too much about, you know, trying to, you know,
728
00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:35.220
express myself or, you know, or, or just just people around me. You know,
729
00:45:35.900 --> 00:45:39.030
I want to know what's in your head. I want to have conversations,
730
00:45:39.370 --> 00:45:42.950
and I don't wanna have a conversation with your, you know, a, um,
731
00:45:43.930 --> 00:45:46.360
an avatar, you know, of the real person.
732
00:45:46.430 --> 00:45:50.280
I wanna speak to Nolan act actual Nolan. And,
733
00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:54.810
and that's why even this conversation, you know, um, I'm loving the,
734
00:45:55.070 --> 00:45:58.010
the way it's taken different directions and, and, and, and, you know,
735
00:45:58.010 --> 00:46:01.530
of course they're coming back to the subject of, of where we are.
736
00:46:01.530 --> 00:46:06.490
But ultimately I think it's a battle of who's allowed to speak and
737
00:46:06.490 --> 00:46:07.490
who's not allowed to speak.
738
00:46:07.720 --> 00:46:12.090
[Nolan] I think, I think you're spot on. And that's what I think about it too, because,</v>
739
00:46:12.090 --> 00:46:13.970
and that's the other thing with without borders, right?
740
00:46:13.970 --> 00:46:18.010
It's not just about borders with countries, but just with thinking, right?
741
00:46:18.010 --> 00:46:21.530
You have to go outside of the borders, and as you said, you might make mistakes.
742
00:46:21.530 --> 00:46:25.130
You might say things that are wrong, you might offend people. And from that,
743
00:46:25.150 --> 00:46:28.690
you might have to retract, you might have to reformulate your opinions,
744
00:46:28.690 --> 00:46:33.100
you might have to expand and grow as a person. But if you are, uh,
745
00:46:33.270 --> 00:46:35.900
if people are controlling what you're allowed to say,
746
00:46:36.650 --> 00:46:40.220
then whoever's doing that is on the wrong side of history. Like,
747
00:46:40.220 --> 00:46:44.510
I find it so interesting that if we just look like 40 years ago, 50 years ago,
748
00:46:44.820 --> 00:46:49.630
they were burning books because they had gay people in it. Right?
749
00:46:49.630 --> 00:46:53.550
Or they, they were, were burning books because they were, um,
750
00:46:54.640 --> 00:46:57.550
uh, like yeah, celebrating, uh,
751
00:46:57.550 --> 00:47:02.070
L G B QT communities or sometimes even burning books because,
752
00:47:02.520 --> 00:47:04.390
uh, it wasn't, um,
753
00:47:05.050 --> 00:47:08.540
presenting white people in a good way or something like that. Right?
754
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:12.980
And then nowadays it's like the other side all of a sudden
755
00:47:13.600 --> 00:47:18.010
saying, okay, we're no longer publishing these books because it has a ra uh,
756
00:47:18.010 --> 00:47:19.010
a racist undertone.
757
00:47:19.010 --> 00:47:22.730
We're no longer publishing these books because it has this undertone.
758
00:47:22.830 --> 00:47:26.810
But it's like, that's kind of denying part of our history, first of all.
759
00:47:26.810 --> 00:47:31.430
And also just, it's, it's hiding some of the voices and
760
00:47:31.430 --> 00:47:32.910
Yeah, that are out there. And we shouldn't.
761
00:47:32.910 --> 00:47:35.110
[Tola Alade] It's trying to sanitize humanity.</v>
762
00:47:35.110 --> 00:47:39.070
And humanity cannot be sanitized. It's, it's,
763
00:47:39.260 --> 00:47:43.510
it's very set free flowing. It's very dynamic. It's very,
764
00:47:43.970 --> 00:47:46.390
you know, and, and, and, and we don't really, yes,
765
00:47:46.390 --> 00:47:49.670
there's books on psychology and there's, there's a great understanding of,
766
00:47:49.670 --> 00:47:54.350
of humans, but we are still very weird creatures. You know?
767
00:47:54.520 --> 00:47:57.870
Uh, we know the right thing to do, but sometimes we choose not to do them,
768
00:47:57.870 --> 00:48:01.190
you know? Uh, and, and we can have the, the, the,
769
00:48:01.190 --> 00:48:05.750
the logical data on what we should do in certain, but we don't.
770
00:48:05.750 --> 00:48:10.470
So again, us the beauty of humanity and this sanitization of,
771
00:48:11.160 --> 00:48:15.590
oh, because this was, you know, you have to, you know, you know,
772
00:48:15.590 --> 00:48:19.190
put things down or you have to, you know, hide things. Like, no,
773
00:48:19.190 --> 00:48:24.110
it's part of history, history, history, you know, has its upsides. And also it,
774
00:48:24.110 --> 00:48:28.510
it, it has its brutal sides as well, and we have to embrace both.
775
00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:32.750
It's a yin yang, you know? Um, order chaos and, you know,
776
00:48:32.750 --> 00:48:37.160
where we have to live is on the borders of,
777
00:48:37.540 --> 00:48:40.280
you know, order and chaos, um
778
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:44.950
as opposed to just trying to create so-called safe spaces.
779
00:48:44.950 --> 00:48:49.230
You know, what the hell, what hell does that even mean? You know? Um, yeah. So,
780
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:54.150
so for me, uh, um, yeah, I, I, I like to, I mean, I,
781
00:48:54.150 --> 00:48:54.900
I, I just,
782
00:48:54.900 --> 00:48:59.230
I like to focus on what I know and what I have very strong
783
00:48:59.230 --> 00:49:02.150
understanding and, and, and so grasp of, um.
784
00:49:02.150 --> 00:49:02.750
[Nolan] Definitely.</v>
785
00:49:02.750 --> 00:49:03.710
[Tola Alade] And that's how I, my.</v>
786
00:49:03.710 --> 00:49:07.390
[Nolan] Life. I'll, I'll respect your safe place. If I come into your safe place,</v>
787
00:49:07.420 --> 00:49:10.830
I will follow your rules, but don't enforce your safe place onto me
788
00:49:10.830 --> 00:49:12.870
kind of thing. Right. Um,
789
00:49:12.870 --> 00:49:17.510
now we've talked a lot about a way to solve some of the issues is by focusing on
790
00:49:17.510 --> 00:49:22.110
the individual. Yeah. Um, but then you also mentioned with Marley,
791
00:49:22.110 --> 00:49:25.950
you're trying to break some of these assumptions people might have about Africa.
792
00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:26.570
Yeah.
793
00:49:26.570 --> 00:49:27.990
[Tola Alade] And, and Africans.</v>
794
00:49:28.330 --> 00:49:31.150
[Nolan] And Africans. Right. And of course,</v>
795
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:35.910
we can't just focus on the individual in that case because there are
796
00:49:35.910 --> 00:49:39.790
stereotypes. Right. So I was, I was kind of wondering what you think about this.
797
00:49:39.790 --> 00:49:43.430
Like, I do have some information here about like stereotype threats. Right.
798
00:49:43.430 --> 00:49:46.910
And stereotype threat is the fear that one might do something that will
799
00:49:47.250 --> 00:49:51.350
inadvertently confirm a negative stereotype about one's group.
800
00:49:51.350 --> 00:49:55.150
And they've done so many studies with this. Um, like for instance, with,
801
00:49:55.150 --> 00:49:57.630
with African Americans, uh,
802
00:49:57.630 --> 00:50:02.110
when they have to write a certain test and then they're primed or they're told
803
00:50:02.110 --> 00:50:05.030
to think about the race beforehand, they,
804
00:50:05.030 --> 00:50:09.110
they do worse on the test because of just the stereotype that exists out there.
805
00:50:09.720 --> 00:50:13.710
Um, but then they've done it with, on the flip side too, when, uh, [laughter],
806
00:50:13.710 --> 00:50:18.110
when European Americans, um, were supposed to,
807
00:50:19.010 --> 00:50:19.420
uh,
808
00:50:19.420 --> 00:50:23.280
had a basketball competition and they had to think about their race beforehand,
809
00:50:23.350 --> 00:50:27.640
they did worse. And they also did it with, with Asian people, um,
810
00:50:27.750 --> 00:50:28.583
when the.
811
00:50:28.710 --> 00:50:32.680
[Tola Alade] Please tell me some of those studies. Yeah. Uh, they, they, they seem very,</v>
812
00:50:32.680 --> 00:50:33.960
very interesting. Yeah.
813
00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:37.800
[Nolan] Right. So of course, even though we are individuals and we have to think like,</v>
814
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.000
okay, how, what can I do to fix this?
815
00:50:41.050 --> 00:50:46.030
The group that we're a part of or the group that society puts us in and the
816
00:50:46.030 --> 00:50:50.870
stereotypes that are out there do subconsciously influence us without us even
817
00:50:50.870 --> 00:50:53.350
knowing it. Right. Um,
818
00:50:53.540 --> 00:50:56.550
what are some ways you think we can solve this as people,
819
00:50:56.560 --> 00:51:00.990
or what are some ways that maybe Marmalade can tackle this as well? Um,
820
00:51:00.990 --> 00:51:02.870
maybe like breaking some of these,
821
00:51:02.870 --> 00:51:05.350
cuz it all comes down to breaking these stereotypes. Yeah. Right.
822
00:51:05.350 --> 00:51:08.710
What can Marmalade do to break the stereotypes about African people?
823
00:51:09.100 --> 00:51:13.990
[Tola Alade] I'll give you one. Um, for example, um,</v>
824
00:51:14.180 --> 00:51:16.030
just visually as well,
825
00:51:16.030 --> 00:51:20.470
in terms of what we're doing with marmalade, you know, from a,
826
00:51:20.470 --> 00:51:22.750
from a branding point of view, um,
827
00:51:23.290 --> 00:51:27.510
who says we need to have African prints over, you know, you know,
828
00:51:27.830 --> 00:51:32.830
the landing page on the website or the logo has to be, you know, an arrow and,
829
00:51:32.830 --> 00:51:34.350
you know, bow and, and,
830
00:51:34.350 --> 00:51:38.910
and just these cliched cliched visual languages or
831
00:51:39.060 --> 00:51:42.830
visual communication tools. So we've actually gone to complete opposite,
832
00:51:42.830 --> 00:51:47.030
which is actually what, what we're here to do is present information,
833
00:51:47.560 --> 00:51:51.610
um, and present content in a way that is clean,
834
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:56.450
easy to understand, easy to digest. So even visually, we've, we've,
835
00:51:56.450 --> 00:51:58.330
we've completely said, um, yes,
836
00:51:58.820 --> 00:52:03.580
it might have made a whole load of sense to write and call it marmalade,
837
00:52:03.670 --> 00:52:05.180
to call it, I don't know,
838
00:52:05.840 --> 00:52:10.700
the African platform for global expansion or whatever, you know, or, or,
839
00:52:10.700 --> 00:52:15.610
or, or, you know, Africa to the world or, or something as. So again, um,
840
00:52:15.640 --> 00:52:20.390
I, I think stereotypes exist, um, some of them are positive,
841
00:52:20.420 --> 00:52:25.290
some are negative, and the ones that are negative,
842
00:52:25.740 --> 00:52:30.450
um, yeah, we're, we, we are just, we're just trying to tackle those through,
843
00:52:30.710 --> 00:52:35.490
not just through our personal point of view or also agenda. Um, it's by,
844
00:52:35.490 --> 00:52:40.070
it's by combing through the internet and finding,
845
00:52:40.090 --> 00:52:43.070
you know, people that are talking about these things already or,
846
00:52:43.070 --> 00:52:47.590
or people that that's challenged those, those uh, uh, uh, conventions or those,
847
00:52:47.590 --> 00:52:51.590
uh, uh, stereotypes, um, just by what they've done.
848
00:52:52.010 --> 00:52:56.150
And this is basically what we do through, through, um, some of the,
849
00:52:56.150 --> 00:52:58.230
the content that we've put out. Um,
850
00:52:58.580 --> 00:53:03.570
a very good example of that is we do something called Beyond Black. Um,
851
00:53:04.070 --> 00:53:08.650
and Beyond Black for me is an exploration into, you know, into identity,
852
00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:11.490
into culture and into heritage.
853
00:53:11.790 --> 00:53:14.430
And it's about
854
00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:22.180
where the inspiration came from. I saw something years ago, uh,
855
00:53:22.180 --> 00:53:25.640
I think maybe 2019 or 2020, um,
856
00:53:26.060 --> 00:53:30.320
and it was Louis Hamilton, um, and it basically said, you know,
857
00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:33.280
the first black billionaire something, something, something.
858
00:53:33.620 --> 00:53:38.210
And for me it's like, what's the relevance of the — Yes,
859
00:53:38.210 --> 00:53:41.610
I know we want representation. I know, yes, it does. You know,
860
00:53:41.610 --> 00:53:42.610
he does help inspire,
861
00:53:42.870 --> 00:53:47.600
but he's already a walking billboard in terms of him
862
00:53:47.600 --> 00:53:51.460
being black. You're stating are obvious. So, yeah.
863
00:53:51.870 --> 00:53:53.380
So for me it's,
864
00:53:53.620 --> 00:53:57.940
let's change these stereotypes not by
865
00:53:58.010 --> 00:54:00.540
amplifying the fact that, you know, you know,
866
00:54:00.540 --> 00:54:03.500
we way off a certain race or because it, it,
867
00:54:03.500 --> 00:54:06.110
it's cuz by doing that you are,
868
00:54:06.110 --> 00:54:10.760
you are kind of giving into the fact that you believe, uh, you know,
869
00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:13.720
black people, African people can't be billionaires.
870
00:54:13.720 --> 00:54:17.180
And actually these people already exist out there. Yeah.
871
00:54:17.630 --> 00:54:18.980
So for me it's,
872
00:54:18.980 --> 00:54:23.300
it's about just be yourself and be the best version of yourself.
873
00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:25.700
And that would, that that just,
874
00:54:25.850 --> 00:54:30.020
just by how you exist will counter some of these, these things.
875
00:54:30.020 --> 00:54:32.740
Like for example, there isn't, there isn't a part,
876
00:54:32.820 --> 00:54:36.220
there isn't anything that will put out there that says, oh, you know,
877
00:54:36.220 --> 00:54:39.420
this is why we, we, we've called Marmalade, Marmalade.
878
00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:43.860
this is why we look a certain way. It's just implied. You will pick it up.
879
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:48.660
Human beings are a lot smarter than that. That, so these stereotypes, I don't,
880
00:54:48.690 --> 00:54:52.820
I don't mind them. Some of them, they're good. They, they, they, you know,
881
00:54:52.990 --> 00:54:57.060
they're humorous. They, we, we can all laugh.
882
00:54:57.250 --> 00:55:01.700
Some of them are very hurtful and are, are designed to produce,
883
00:55:01.910 --> 00:55:03.940
um, a certain perception.
884
00:55:03.940 --> 00:55:06.540
And those are the ones that we are going after aggressively,
885
00:55:06.720 --> 00:55:10.340
but not aggressively in a very overt, oh,
886
00:55:10.770 --> 00:55:15.210
Africans are always late, so hey 10, you know,
887
00:55:15.210 --> 00:55:18.770
here 10 evidence as to why, you know, African side. No,
888
00:55:18.770 --> 00:55:22.010
just show up to the meeting early. That's it. Uh, you know,
889
00:55:22.020 --> 00:55:26.290
or just in your daily interaction. So, uh, um, yeah, that,
890
00:55:26.610 --> 00:55:31.170
that's my, that's my very long-winded view on, on stereotypes.
891
00:55:31.520 --> 00:55:36.090
Yeah. And by the way, it operates on both sides. Both sides in a sense of,
892
00:55:36.580 --> 00:55:40.610
um, you know, people that have these stereotypes against, you know,
893
00:55:40.610 --> 00:55:43.330
Africans or, you know, black people. Um,
894
00:55:44.540 --> 00:55:49.350
people have stereotypes in general. People have, uh, you know,
895
00:55:49.350 --> 00:55:54.030
you know, stereotypes on, on Asian people, on, you know, Arabs,
896
00:55:54.120 --> 00:55:59.030
on, on, you know, on Dutch, people on English, people on, you know,
897
00:55:59.030 --> 00:56:03.430
Welsh people. It's like, people just do and, and it's just part of humanity.
898
00:56:03.430 --> 00:56:07.710
But, um, as I said, I find some of them funny. And, and,
899
00:56:07.710 --> 00:56:12.230
and I can, I can laugh, you know, because I, it's just funny. Yeah.
900
00:56:12.580 --> 00:56:15.470
[Nolan] I agree, man. [laughter] like, uh, I,</v>
901
00:56:15.470 --> 00:56:19.590
I wanna break down stereotypes and everything, but sometimes humor is humor.
902
00:56:19.590 --> 00:56:21.910
Great. Sometimes you can have some fun and,
903
00:56:21.910 --> 00:56:24.960
and also recognize some of these stereotypes as well.
904
00:56:24.960 --> 00:56:27.480
Just there's no reason to be in denial about certain things.
905
00:56:27.480 --> 00:56:28.600
[Tola Alade] Yeah. Yeah.</v>
906
00:56:29.310 --> 00:56:32.020
[Nolan] Uh, now Tola, I know you need to go pretty soon here.</v>
907
00:56:32.020 --> 00:56:35.700
So is there anything else you want to say, uh, to wrap this all up? I mean,
908
00:56:35.700 --> 00:56:39.260
and I think you've already pointed at a lot of excellent things today,
909
00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:42.070
but anything else you wanna say to wrap it up?
910
00:56:42.560 --> 00:56:47.360
[Tola Alade] So, um, I think for me, um, even though I've,</v>
911
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:50.440
I've, you know, spoken in a very, um, in a very,
912
00:56:51.270 --> 00:56:54.080
very sort of, you know,
913
00:56:56.050 --> 00:56:59.720
assured way about what we're doing with Marmalade, um,
914
00:57:00.620 --> 00:57:02.930
we don't pretend to know it all. Um, we,
915
00:57:03.180 --> 00:57:07.690
we understand some of the blind spots, uh, we might have in terms of,
916
00:57:07.830 --> 00:57:11.430
for example, you know, you can't tell the, the,
917
00:57:11.430 --> 00:57:14.870
the entire story of African Africans, uh,
918
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:19.390
without understanding that you might have a certain bias for, let's say,
919
00:57:19.390 --> 00:57:22.590
you know, you're from Nigeria or you are West African. So there,
920
00:57:22.590 --> 00:57:27.290
there could be a unconscious focus on some of those things.
921
00:57:27.300 --> 00:57:31.490
So, um, we are, we are exploring what we are exploring, uh,
922
00:57:31.490 --> 00:57:35.970
with open mind and also with the understanding that culture is
923
00:57:35.970 --> 00:57:40.090
evolving, you know, society's evolving, and we are going to evolve, you know,
924
00:57:40.090 --> 00:57:45.030
with, with society, um, as it does. And yeah,
925
00:57:45.030 --> 00:57:49.430
we, we always welcome feedback, um, you know, you know,
926
00:57:50.180 --> 00:57:54.980
email, comment, dm, uh, any, any sort of, you know, uh, uh,
927
00:57:54.980 --> 00:57:59.140
uh, ideas and we're, we're always looking for collaborators as well. Um,
928
00:57:59.210 --> 00:58:00.460
people that are,
929
00:58:00.840 --> 00:58:04.700
are excited about what we're looking to do and what our mission is, um,
930
00:58:04.830 --> 00:58:08.870
to see what could come out of, you know, a really,
931
00:58:09.560 --> 00:58:14.510
um, a really, um, remarkable partnership or,
932
00:58:14.510 --> 00:58:16.070
or collaboration. Um,
933
00:58:16.250 --> 00:58:20.360
but ultimately we are here to educate. Um,
934
00:58:20.360 --> 00:58:24.720
I hate that word by the way, uh, but it, it's, I'm using it shorthand now. Um,
935
00:58:24.880 --> 00:58:28.320
we're here to, to, you know, educate and, you know,
936
00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:32.760
entertain the world about African culture, uh,
937
00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:37.760
in a way that resonates. Um, we also want to,
938
00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:38.120
you know,
939
00:58:38.120 --> 00:58:43.080
create what we call a cultural exchange between Africa and Western
940
00:58:43.080 --> 00:58:47.120
culture, um, just so that it's not strange to say, Hey,
941
00:58:47.140 --> 00:58:52.040
I'm taking my whole family to Tanzania for, for, for holiday,
942
00:58:52.090 --> 00:58:56.320
or, or you go to an African fine dining restaurant. It's not, it's not like,
943
00:58:56.320 --> 00:59:01.130
Ooh, look, it's like, it's just something you do, you know? Um,
944
00:59:01.380 --> 00:59:05.170
so ultimately, um, I just wanna live in a world where, you know, um,
945
00:59:05.810 --> 00:59:10.450
human beings just connect, uh, um, irrespective of, you know, where you're from,
946
00:59:10.450 --> 00:59:11.490
where your background is,
947
00:59:11.750 --> 00:59:15.890
and we're focused on the more positive aspects of life and, and, and,
948
00:59:15.890 --> 00:59:20.840
and just meet more incredible people like yourself and, and, and.
949
00:59:20.840 --> 00:59:24.960
Just, and just have open conversations. Yeah. </v>
950
00:59:25.720 --> 00:59:27.650
[Nolan] Perfect. Well, everyone who's listening right now,
951
00:59:27.650 --> 00:59:29.850
if you want to be a part of that conversation,
952
00:59:29.870 --> 00:59:33.490
I'm gonna put a link in the description for marmalade.
953
00:59:33.490 --> 00:59:36.250
I'm also looking forward to everything that's going to happen.
954
00:59:36.520 --> 00:59:38.890
I need to double check by subscription status actually,
955
00:59:38.890 --> 00:59:43.050
cuz I haven't gotten an email. Um, anyway, I'm gonna double check that.
956
00:59:43.050 --> 00:59:47.930
Make sure [laughter] withoutborders.fyi is also a
957
00:59:47.930 --> 00:59:52.250
subscription site. So I'm gonna put both, uh, links in the description and, uh,
958
00:59:52.250 --> 00:59:56.890
please subscribe to both of our websites. That's how it can keep this all going.
959
00:59:56.890 --> 01:00:01.130
And of course, the bigger the community gets, the better it gets. Uh,
960
01:00:01.130 --> 01:00:04.010
we can't do this without your support. Um,
961
01:00:04.060 --> 01:00:08.410
so please check out our websites and thanks for tuning in. Thank you.
962
01:00:08.970 --> 01:00:09.610
Thank you.