E16 - Why Travel? With Dr. Matthew Niblett and Dr. Kris Beuret

Dr. Matthew Niblett and Dr. Kris Beuret talk about their book Why Travel. Matthew and Kris share some personal stories about their gap years and travel experiences only available in this episode. Together with the host, Nolan Yuma, they explore new insights and questions that will lead to future research in the fields of travel and transportation.

As always, you can find the episode on all major listening platforms. If you are having trouble viewing the video or audio file on your email provider, please visit the website to ensure the best listening and viewing experience.

Purchase the book.

Why travel? What motivations underpin the journeys we make? And how can we make decisions that improve our travel experiences?

Arguing that the desire to move is a purpose in itself, this book brings together leading experts to provide insights from multiple viewpoints across the sciences, arts and humanities. Together, they examine key travel motivations, including the importance of travel for human wellbeing, and how these can be reconciled with challenges such as reducing our carbon footprint, adapting new mobility technologies, and improving the quality of our journeys.

The book shows how our travel choices are shaped by a wide range of social, physical, psychological and cultural factors, which have profound implications for the design of future transport policies.

Offering thought-provoking and practical new perspectives, this fascinating book will be essential for all those who have ever wondered why we travel and how it relates to our fundamental needs.

More about the authors

Matthew is the director of the Independent Transport Commission, which is Britain’s foremost independent transport and land use think tank. Matthew holds a doctorate from the University of Oxford and was a Senior Research Associate at the University's Transport Studies Unit.

Kristine Beuret is the Director of Social Research Associates and a social scientist specialised in transport and urban policy. Kris has advised the House of Commons Transport Committee, TfL, the DfT and overseas governments on disability and diversity issues.

You can also learn more about the Why Travel project at whytravel.org.

As a paid subscriber, you can support the show and access the transcript below.

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[Nolan] Inescapably Foreign. Welcome to Without Borders.

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If this is your first time tuning in, know that this is the podcast for nomads,

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immigrants, refugees, third culture children,

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or anyone else that feels inescapably foreign. Remember,

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I do have a website without borders.fyi.

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You can tune in there to join the community and also read some more interesting

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articles about cultural psychology or get some more in-depth information about

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people's immigration experiences. Today I am here with, uh, Dr.

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Dr. Matthew Niblett and Kris Beuret.

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Matthew is the director of the Independent Transport Commission,

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which is Britain's foremost independent transport and land use think tank.

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Matthew holds a doctorate from the University of Oxford and was a senior

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research associate at the University's Transport Studies Unit. Uh,

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Kris is the Director of Social Research Associates and a social

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scientist specialized in transport and urban policy.

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Kris has advised the House of Commons Transport Committee TFL:,

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the DFT, and oversees governments on disability and diversity issues.

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In other words, I have a lot to learn from Kris and Matthew.

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And today we're focusing on the project and the book. Why Travel?

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Um,

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so can you describe the project to us and why the ITTC is carrying out this

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far-reaching study?

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[Matthew]  Thank you, uh, Nolan. It's a great pleasure to be on the, uh, podcast today.

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Um, the ITTC is a travel and transport think tank.

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And so what we are particularly interested in, uh,

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some of these really big questions, these long-term, uh,

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questions about the fundamental motivations that drive human movement,

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which is something which isn't either really studied in the academic world

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or often looked at in, in government. And we felt, uh,

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that there needed to be, um,

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much more attention paid to understanding these motivations, uh, which,

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which drive this, you know, absolutely crucial aspect of, of human existence.

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Uh,

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so the project really sort of started to begin to pull together expertise

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from a much wider body of, uh, knowledge, uh,

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than is normally found, uh, in the, in the transport world, uh,

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to try and really get a kaleidoscope of insights into

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the reasons that drive, uh, drive human travel.

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And with the hope that once we disassembled that kaleidoscope of insights,

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the whole would be bigger than the sum of its parts.

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And we would then be able to, uh,

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hopefully get a much deeper and richer understanding of, uh, travel motivations.

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It's been a long time in the making, uh,

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but we decided that perhaps the best way of disseminating this knowledge was

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through a book. Uh, so the, the project has been working to develop, uh,

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the book that was published last year by Bristol University Press. I think, uh,

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I dunno whether that's in reverse, but, uh, I'm sure you can put a link up, um,

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to the, uh, to the website to in due course. Uh,

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the book itself brings together, uh, I think 12, um,

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insights from different areas, from biology to philosophy,

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to sociology, to economics, um,

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all exploring different aspects of, of what drive, um,

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what drives human travel. Uh, and we hope that, you know, together this,

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this is a kind of resource that, that people can use and,

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and find helpful in terms of thinking about, uh, this,

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this extraordinary capacity that humans have of and desire

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that they have for travel.

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[Nolan] Yeah. And the book really covers everything when we think about why travel,

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right? It covers the biological, philosophical, economical, sociological,

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spiritual, anthropological, technological. Right. I'm running outta alls here,

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but really covers everything. Um, now, uh, Kris,

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um,

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the section that you wrote and specialize in is the sociological part of it,

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correct?

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[Kris] That's right, yes. But, um, before I go into that,

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I was just going to say we could have had loads more chapters.

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So for instance, there's one on literature, but what about music?

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You know, what about art? What about photography?

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So lots of people who bought the book said, yes,

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but why didn't you have this chapter instead? And,

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and I think we could have gone on adding about 10 others in the end.

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[Nolan] Do you think you will write an updated version or do you think you'll update it

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on the website?

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[Kris] I think we'll do both,

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but I think what we will do is develop some arguments stemming

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from the book. Because if you think about it, Nolan, at the moment,

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people are beginning to say, you know, we need to think about carbon.

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We need to stop traveling, particularly flying, um, and,

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and you know,

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so it's become very at debate because the message of the book is actually,

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there is a lot of value in travel,

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and we wouldn't be where we are as human beings today if we hadn't traveled.

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So that was, you know, that was a key message of the book,

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and it is very timely with everyone saying, oh,

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I better not fly and to see my granny for Christmas. You know?

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[Nolan] Yes. Um.

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[Kris] You asked me about the sociology chapter. Yes. I just,

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maybe we could come back to that.

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But that deals with things like the role of

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travel and people moving around the world in order to, for instance,

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better themselves.

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So the whole issue of social mobility has often depended on moving

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away from where you grew up to have a wider experience,

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to get a job to, you know, experience the different culture.

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Um, or even to, you know,

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as the biology chapter mentioned to mix the gene pool. No,

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no. Where do people meet their partners?

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Imagine if they only met people in the village they lived in.

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It would be a very strange world, wouldn't it?

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So a lot of themed within the sociology chapter.

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[Nolan] Definitely.

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And that biological perspective actually made me think of another study, um,

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with the law of averageness where we're attracted to averageness average

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is of course not being, oh, sh that person's a five out of 10,

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and that kind of superficial way of looking at it.

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But average is being the averageness of all faces.

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And some studies found that people are most attracted to mixed

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races,

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which also kind of makes me think about why we might intrinsically be motivated

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to, to, uh, travel as well, is to mix, as you say. And of course,

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that strengthens the gene pool and everything like that. Um,

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now Kris,

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just touching on what you said earlier about the environmental aspects of it,

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and you said some people are scared to travel now because they don't want to

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have as much of a carbon footprint. What are some of the,

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the positive aspects environmentally and, and Matthew,

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feel free to jump in here whenever you want as well.

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[Kris] Mm-hmm. Well, look, if I can just say socially,

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it's important for people to experience other cultures,

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um, not just, you know, because it's a good thing to do,

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but it's because it creates harmony. I do believe that by traveling,

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you understand people. I mean, you know,

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there is the other side of the coin in that you go to another place and you just

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spend your whole life comparing how unfavorable it is with your own

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culture. But I think most people when they travel, do gain an,

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gain an understanding, and most people are made very welcome when they travel.

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So, um, I do think that that's an important thing. But,

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you know, the,

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the environmental challenge is definitely something we need to think about.

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[Nolan] Mm-hmm.

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And what are some of the things you're thinking about right now with that?

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[Kris] I think some adverse effects of, um,

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being too local. I mean, one of my, um,

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my company used to be in Lester,

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which is a big multicultural city in the UK. Um,

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and that is divided by religion and one end of town Muslims live,

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and the other end Hindus.

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And they have been the young people who have been fighting each other, you know,

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all the shops are locally, they don't mix very much.

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And I think that is an epitomizes the need to

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people to mix and experience other cultures.

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[Nolan] Definitely. Matthew, anything you want to add to.

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[Matthew]  That? I, I think on the, um, Kris is the,

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the expert on, on sociology on the, on the environment side.

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I was going to just, um,

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say one of the big policy problems that we're facing in the UK and elsewhere

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at the moment is how do you square the circle of,

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of satisfying people's,

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this inherent desire to travel with the fact that at the moment

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at least a lot of travel is very carbon intensive. Um,

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and there's a real conundrum there,

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because particularly for long distance travel,

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it's so carbon intensive that there's an increasing, uh,

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moral imperative perhaps to do less long distance travel than

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than was the case in the past, at least until more carbon neutral ways of, uh,

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of traveling can be found. Uh, so I think one of the themes in the book though,

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is that it's really important when it comes to making

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policy that we don't just fall into the trap,

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that we have to always be focusing on less travel per se.

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It's as much about encouraging better travel, uh,

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and that tends to mean more sustainable ways of travel,

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perhaps focusing on what is imperfectly called slow

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travel, uh, which tends to mean slow in terms of taking your time over it. Um,

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yeah. Rather than focusing on speed and distance. Um, uh, so,

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uh, so much, uh, and also on the quality of,

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of our travel experiences, because frankly, as we know,

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some aspects of longer distance travel, uh, particularly going through,

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uh, uh, airports for example, is not always a very, uh,

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happy or pleasant experience. And that,

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that time actually might be better spent focusing on, um,

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more enjoyable forms of travel, uh, closer to home.

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[Kris] One of the, um,

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one of the issues that came outta the book was the way in which we make

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decisions about investment in transport.

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So at the moment in the UK for instance,

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when you decide whether you are going to fund a new rail system,

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things like speed and journey time have a

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big impact on whether they think it's worth investing in that new railway.

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So we've got high speed two, you know,

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nearly finished now from London to Birmingham,

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reducing the time from over an hour to 40 minutes.

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But a lot of people are saying, actually,

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40 minutes is not a brilliant time for me to get my computer out

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and do a bit of work.  And so, you know,

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have we overestimated the value of time in trouble and

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is it more, as Matthew just said, to do with quality and what you do,

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particularly now you can work whilst you are traveling, um, and so on.

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So that really is changing the goalposts,

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but I think the people who make investment decisions haven't really caught up

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with that.

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[Nolan] Yeah, definitely. And you touched on that in the book.

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I know it's kind of cliche to say,

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but the way you described in the book is much more in depth, but it's,

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it's not about the destination, it's about the journey. Right. Uh,

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I think I had a lot to do with that as well.

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[Kris] Do you also Nolan that, um,

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something about traveling in itself that you get to know

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people and talk to people,

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sit next to people who you wouldn't normally have a lot to do with,

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and a lot of people have told us how they quite enjoy that experience of talking

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and meeting other people on the train as they're cycling around the town,

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or even in an airplane, you know, [laughter]

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[Nolan] Yeah, yeah, definitely.

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I've noticed it from my own life and just talking to others,

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usually the best stories, whether they're adverse or not, are the, are the,

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the, the, the journey itself, because that's usually where, uh, yeah,

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things go unexpected. And I think that's where the,

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the most interesting stories come out is when these unexpected experiences,

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because you usually know a little bit about the destination,

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that's why you're going there,

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but you don't really know what to expect when you're,

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when you're traveling there, right?

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[Kris] No. Well, I once did, um, a TV program with, um,

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a man who I would call, you know, fanatical car user,

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and he told me how he hated public

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transport because he didn't like this meeting other people.

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He found it quite scary. And he said, you know,

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in my car I'm cocooned in the, the, the, if you like,

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the security of my own space. And I thought, well,

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that was kind of quite unusual.

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And I imagine a lot of people listening today would not take that view and would

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actually really enjoy travel and maybe did a gap year traveling or make

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a point of say,

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going by rail across Siberia just for the hell of the

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experience, you know?

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[Nolan] Yeah, definitely. Well, a little bit later,

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I want to touch on the gap years, because you mentioned that in the book,

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and I wanted to hear about your gap year experiences or one of your most

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pivotal, um, experiences. But before we get into that, uh,

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a little bit more about the, the environment, what else can we do to,

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to travel, um, efficiently, uh, and I mean,

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when it comes to carbon car, um, to make sure that we don't use too much,

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um, carbon and to, um, yeah,

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to travel in the most environmentally friendly possible way?

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[Matthew]  Well, I, I suppose one aspect is to,

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is to focus on, um, uh,

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focus less on speed and distance,

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which pushes you towards forms of transport, which tend,

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at least at the moment to be, um,

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to be more sustainable and also perhaps to focus more on, on travel,

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which has an active element. Um,

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one of the things that's clearly becoming more popular, for instance, is,

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is travel to places where rather than spending your time zooming

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around,

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it involves hiking or walking through some aspects of the

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natural world or, uh, some aspects of the local, uh,

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community in that, uh, country that you are kind of visiting. Um,

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so those kind of, I think also, um,

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activities are helpful. Kris.

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[Kris] I think also, um, the ITC,

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this is the organization Matthew and I represent,

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are doing some work at the moment on the future of technology. And I,

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I do really believe that if we have a need to do something,

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the technology often follows it as it did with Covid, you know,

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when we came up with vaccinations overnight. And, um,

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the ITTC is just doing publishing about to publish, um,

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a research study looking at future in aviation,

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uh, and how that will reduce the, uh, carbon output. And, um,

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I know some people are very pessimistic about it, and then clearly there's a,

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a crisis at the moment.

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But I think I'm quite optimistic that in a few years we'll have cracked that.

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And I dunno, Matthew, you know, you know more about that research than I do,

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but there are some very optimistic developments aren't there.

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[Matthew]  For aviation? You, I mean, yes. I mean, I think, I think, um,

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the problem with, with a psh, just, just because of the nature of,

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of what it involves, it needs very energy intensive, um,

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forms of propulsion. So the,

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the technological hurdle in terms of getting to a position where we can,

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we can fly in a carbon neutral way is much higher than for other forms of

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transport. Uh, but at the same time, I mean,

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two areas where there's been a lot of investment is in more sustainable aviation

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fuels. So for instance, if we can for instance, create,

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uh, the kerosene is the main form of, of fuel used, uh, in, um,

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in jet plains at the moment, if we can, for instance,

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make a significant part of the kerosene from, um,

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various synthetic or, um, biological, um,

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methods which reduce the overall carbon footprint,

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now that's already helping to go go a long way to reducing the, um,

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the carbon footprint from, um, flying beyond that obviously is the,

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the holy grail would be some form of propulsion, which doesn't involve, um,

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uh, fossil fuels at all.

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But I think initially that's going to be particularly focused on short haul

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flights. So if, if you do have electric propulsion, um,

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or battery powered sort of planes, then those, those will be for, uh,

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short haul flights, probably under a thousand kilometers. Uh, I think, uh,

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further longer haul flights. Carbon neutral flying is further away.

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[Nolan] Yes. Now of course, it's kind of down the road and as you said, it's, um,

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it's a little bit more difficult because it's, um, well, yeah,

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it just takes more energy for the planes than it does for trains. Now,

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one of the reasons that I will take a plane over a train is usually

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not with time, but with price,

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because a Ryan air flight is usually cheaper than for me to

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take the train, even though I have the time.

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Like I would take the train because I have the time,

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but it's a money saving thing.

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So what are some of the things maybe the ITC does or, um,

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things that we can do to pressure government bodies to make trains

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more, um, uh, or make them cheaper for the people,

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or to subsidize them in a way,

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because that's something that's holding me back from taking the train as much as

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I should and as much as I actually would like to.

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[Matthew]  It's a good, it's a good question. Um, but I, I think there's,

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there's a fundamental problem here in this much as if you took all the people

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off the planes and put them onto the train,

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you would find the overcrowding would be horrendous.

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There's simply not the capacity on rail to cope with, um,

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substituting all those people flying, uh, with putting them onto, um,

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onto rail and actually per mile travel.

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[Nolan] Very good point.

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[Matthew]  Per mile traveled rail is always just because of the infrastructure that is

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00:19:55.260 --> 00:19:59.340
involved be going to be much more expensive than, uh, than than flying.

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So sadly, I think unless the subsidy rail,

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or unless you,

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you live in a society where people are prepared to pay, um,

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much more through taxation for, uh, rail, uh,

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it's going to be quite difficult to make it cheaper than, um,

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than flying without.

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Also at the same time putting a lot of extra taxes on, um, o on,

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uh, aviation and flying and trying to discourage, uh, use using the,

320
00:20:31.980 --> 00:20:34.980
as we say, the stick, as well as the, as well as the carrot.

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00:20:37.750 --> 00:20:39.320
[Nolan] Yeah, very good point.

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[Matthew]  One.

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[Kris] Thing, Kris, anything that, um,

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one thing that should bring the price of rail down is post Covid,

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many people are working much more flexibly. Um,

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and some research the ITTC has done is showing that there's more leisure travel.

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So the actual demand for rail travel is evening out.

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And you are having,

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you don't have to provide for those peaks in the morning and evening,

330
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which is very expensive cuz the trains go into the cities,

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pull up and go back empty.

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So actually it's a lost liter off on commuting now. It's all evening out.

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And we do hope that that might even out the cost,

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reduce the cost and make it cheaper to, to use rail.

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[Matthew]  Yeah, I mean I Kris, sorry.

336
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[Nolan] No, sorry Matthew, go ahead.

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[Matthew]  I was just going to say that there's a very interesting.

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[Nolan] Oh, go ahead Matthew.

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[Matthew]  Yes. Aspect in there, which is that we produced this, um,

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we produced the Why Travel book when it came out last year, of course,

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with Covid still causing massive problems in terms

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of travel and, and lockdowns and had only just, had only just ended in the,

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00:21:52.130 --> 00:21:54.250
uh, in the UK. Um,

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and it's been very interesting to look at what effect the pandemic has had on,

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on travel behavior. And as Kris mentioned, one of the fascinating things,

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at least in Britain, is that there's been a very significant shift from,

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in what, why we are traveling. Uh, as in we're doing less business travel,

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there's less commuting,

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but quite a lot of that has been taken up by an increase in leisure travel.

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So I think the pandemic has forced people to, uh,

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prioritize what they do when they travel in different ways.

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[Nolan] Definitely. Well, okay, let, let's touch on that then a bit,

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because I think some people might argue, oh, if it's just for leisure,

354
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we shouldn't be doing it because of environmental reasons, right?

355
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But as you mentioned in the book as well,

356
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that's not really true because it's healthy to travel. Not only, um,

357
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it's healthy physically as you describe in the book,

358
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but it's also healthy from a psychological standpoint. Um,

359
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so can you touch a little bit more on that,

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like why we need to travel and why leisure

361
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doesn't mean that it's not necessary?

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[Kris] Can I just start by referring perhaps to the arts,

363
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and you think about, you know, just think about your favorite music,

364
00:23:11.340 --> 00:23:15.380
your favorite paintings, think of Picasso,

365
00:23:15.860 --> 00:23:20.420
think of Van Gough, you know, people like that. If they hadn't traveled,

366
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what would they be drawing? What would they be writing about? And so on. So,

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and then think about books, your favorite books. Much of the,

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uh, that literature,

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I bet I wouldn't mind betting is set in exotic places or places

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different from where you grew up. So, you know,

371
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if you just take that one chapter on the arts,

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you can understand,

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I think what we're trying to say here on the value of travel.

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And it's almost impossible to imagine a world even, you know,

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before airplanes were invented the grand tour of

376
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Europe, discovering America. If all those things hadn't happened,

377
00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:08.020
where would we be as a society would be, you know, running around,

378
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living in caves still, I should think.

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00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:15.610
[Nolan] Definitely. And you're bringing up a lot of the historical aspects of it,

380
00:24:15.610 --> 00:24:16.930
but in, in your, in the book,

381
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you also mentioned the study where they just ask people to think,

382
00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:27.010
um, that they're solving the problem in a place that is

383
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far away, right? Um, like, in other words, it was social distancing.

384
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So being separated from an event, uh,

385
00:24:35.130 --> 00:24:40.050
by the temporal social or spatial distance actually promotes creative thinking.

386
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Right?

387
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:45.890
[Matthew]  Yeah. It's very interesting if the first two chapters of the book are, uh,

388
00:24:47.310 --> 00:24:51.530
the first two chapters of the book, um, uh, were by Charles Pasternak

389
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who was an evolutionary biologist, and, uh, by Tony Hiss, who's, uh, uh,

390
00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.370
a famous American author who's written very widely on a range of things,

391
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but the chapters related to his book, uh, called In Motion, um,

392
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in which he looked at some the psychological, uh,

393
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reasons why travel seems to be so important.

394
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And going back to your health point, I mean,

395
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I think there are two aspects to the health benefits of, of travel.

396
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You've got the physical side, um,

397
00:25:20.170 --> 00:25:24.930
which comes through the way in which our bodies respond particularly to active

398
00:25:24.930 --> 00:25:28.970
forms of travel, whether that's, uh, running, cycling, or swimming.

399
00:25:29.620 --> 00:25:34.010
Um, there are very clear ways in which, uh,

400
00:25:34.010 --> 00:25:38.730
our bodies, um, tend to produce, uh,

401
00:25:39.010 --> 00:25:41.050
chemicals, uh, which, uh,

402
00:25:41.050 --> 00:25:44.890
which improve our sort of sense of wellbeing as well as making us, uh,

403
00:25:44.890 --> 00:25:49.890
fitter and and healthier through those different forms of movement. Um,

404
00:25:50.060 --> 00:25:54.050
Charles Pasternak, the professor Pasternak

405
00:25:54.050 --> 00:25:58.370
very interesting in linking that back to our evolutionary history, uh,

406
00:25:58.370 --> 00:26:01.170
back to say the, the savannahs of East Africa,

407
00:26:01.660 --> 00:26:05.730
whereby we had to be sort of scanning wide distances and being able to travel

408
00:26:05.730 --> 00:26:10.130
over kind of long distances in order to, to survive and to,

409
00:26:10.580 --> 00:26:15.010
um, capture the food that, um, that we needed to, to survive.

410
00:26:15.190 --> 00:26:15.970
But as you say,

411
00:26:15.970 --> 00:26:19.570
there's been a lot of work done more recently on the mental health benefits of,

412
00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:22.290
um, of movement, uh, and travel.

413
00:26:22.510 --> 00:26:26.930
And it became a very important aspect, for instance, during the pandemic, uh,

414
00:26:26.930 --> 00:26:31.210
when there were big concerns about what this might mean for people's mental

415
00:26:31.210 --> 00:26:33.570
health. Um, and in Britain at least,

416
00:26:33.670 --> 00:26:38.530
one of the key things that people said kept them sane was that ability to go

417
00:26:38.530 --> 00:26:42.650
out into their local area for a couple of hours a day, uh,

418
00:26:42.650 --> 00:26:46.880
particularly if they were, if they were walking or cycling.

419
00:26:47.770 --> 00:26:48.580
Um,

420
00:26:48.580 --> 00:26:53.000
and that I think on its own demonstrated that power of,

421
00:26:53.170 --> 00:26:57.640
of just sort of getting, getting outside moving, um,

422
00:26:58.100 --> 00:27:03.000
and, and feeling the, uh, the wellbeing that that just comes from,

423
00:27:03.050 --> 00:27:05.120
uh, from that in a very simple way.

424
00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:12.460
[Nolan] Yes, yes. Um, other thing this makes me think about,

425
00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:14.940
now, I don't know if I missed this in the book,

426
00:27:14.940 --> 00:27:18.420
but do you talk about third culture children in the book at all?

427
00:27:19.820 --> 00:27:23.660
[Matthew]  Kris, that's probably more on your sociological side.

428
00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:25.690
[Kris] Yeah. Could.

429
00:27:25.690 --> 00:27:28.970
[Nolan] You, third, third culture kids, do you mention that in the book?

430
00:27:31.430 --> 00:27:34.490
[Kris] I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Expand it a bit.

431
00:27:34.760 --> 00:27:36.090
[Nolan] Okay. Because, well,

432
00:27:36.090 --> 00:27:39.810
I think it might be interesting for a future edition or just on the site as

433
00:27:39.810 --> 00:27:43.250
well, but third culture kids are, are kids like me,

434
00:27:43.250 --> 00:27:46.690
kids that grew up and, um,

435
00:27:47.130 --> 00:27:51.650
three or more different countries, um, before a certain age.

436
00:27:51.770 --> 00:27:53.890
Right. And because of that, they,

437
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.570
they are very open to different experiences.

438
00:27:57.570 --> 00:28:01.330
Those are some of the positive psychological effects, right? They're, yeah,

439
00:28:01.330 --> 00:28:04.570
usually open to different experiences, open to different opinions.

440
00:28:04.990 --> 00:28:08.010
And that defines me. On the flip side,

441
00:28:08.010 --> 00:28:10.930
there's the negative impacts as well where they have a bit of an identity

442
00:28:10.930 --> 00:28:14.090
crisis. And when I was younger, I definitely went through that.

443
00:28:14.090 --> 00:28:17.850
And I think since I keep traveling and keep throwing myself into new

444
00:28:17.850 --> 00:28:22.610
experiences, I do have the negative side of that as well. And I just,

445
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:27.130
I notice that on a psychological level that travel has done wonders for me,

446
00:28:27.270 --> 00:28:30.290
but it also has affected me negatively in some ways,

447
00:28:30.290 --> 00:28:34.050
especially with finding identity. Um, Kris,

448
00:28:34.050 --> 00:28:37.810
do you have any more insight into that? Yeah, well, can you help me?

449
00:28:37.810 --> 00:28:38.770
In other words? Yes.

450
00:28:39.120 --> 00:28:39.770
[Kris] I mean the,

451
00:28:39.770 --> 00:28:44.370
there are chapters on exploration and migration,

452
00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:45.910
um,

453
00:28:45.910 --> 00:28:50.570
and the evidence suggests that when people first

454
00:28:50.570 --> 00:28:54.370
migrate, say for instance, you know, people that went to America,

455
00:28:54.370 --> 00:28:58.250
particularly in the 19th and early 20th century, they,

456
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:03.530
they do everything they can to integrate with that society in the

457
00:29:03.530 --> 00:29:04.730
sense that they feel, you know,

458
00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:08.090
they've got to prove they've made the right decision, they'd belong.

459
00:29:08.550 --> 00:29:12.810
But then the next generation who are born in America

460
00:29:13.240 --> 00:29:18.050
have this great urge to understand more about the society that

461
00:29:18.050 --> 00:29:22.210
their ancestors came from and would  actually, you know,

462
00:29:22.290 --> 00:29:26.490
adopt the food from Poland or Jewish food or whatever their

463
00:29:26.820 --> 00:29:29.490
parents or grandparents came from.

464
00:29:29.660 --> 00:29:34.270
So it does seem that we need to feel we

465
00:29:34.270 --> 00:29:37.230
belong somewhere and have a sense of who we are.

466
00:29:38.210 --> 00:29:41.680
And if we have that firmly established,

467
00:29:42.070 --> 00:29:46.600
then we can travel around and feel comfortable with it. But otherwise,

468
00:29:46.690 --> 00:29:50.200
we are constantly wandering and don't feel we belong anywhere.

469
00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:52.160
And that's probably not very good either.

470
00:29:52.290 --> 00:29:57.120
So I think the fact that travel enables us

471
00:29:57.120 --> 00:30:01.680
to discover our roots or the roots of our grandparents or ancestors

472
00:30:02.580 --> 00:30:06.380
and relate to that. So I think that, you know, again,

473
00:30:06.990 --> 00:30:10.740
we do need to belong somewhere and explore that,

474
00:30:10.840 --> 00:30:14.140
but increasingly we understand different cultures. I mean,

475
00:30:14.140 --> 00:30:18.500
in Britain the percentage of multi of

476
00:30:18.780 --> 00:30:23.580
mixed marriages is increasing and people are increasingly

477
00:30:23.580 --> 00:30:28.380
having one parent from one culture and one from another and want

478
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:31.340
to explore those two cultures. So, you know,

479
00:30:31.340 --> 00:30:35.940
I think as long as you have an interest in where you were bred,

480
00:30:36.020 --> 00:30:39.980
where other societies work and where you might have come from years ago,

481
00:30:40.170 --> 00:30:41.780
it's a huge industry.

482
00:30:41.780 --> 00:30:46.180
And people finding out their family trees and going, you know,

483
00:30:46.180 --> 00:30:49.100
back to the countries that they came from years ago.

484
00:30:51.010 --> 00:30:53.180
[Nolan] Mhm. Now that's,

485
00:30:53.290 --> 00:30:57.300
that's a little bit easier for someone like me to do because I can kind of track

486
00:30:57.300 --> 00:31:00.900
down my family tree. Um, but what about for some of the people,

487
00:31:01.820 --> 00:31:06.100
let's use America as example, because you used America as an example as well.

488
00:31:06.430 --> 00:31:10.860
Um, a lot of African Americans are unable to track their roots down. Right?

489
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:15.460
And that kind of also leads to certain identity issues.

490
00:31:15.910 --> 00:31:16.370
Um,

491
00:31:16.370 --> 00:31:21.060
what are some things people can do in those cases when you

492
00:31:21.060 --> 00:31:24.340
can't really track your, your historical roots?

493
00:31:25.090 --> 00:31:29.900
[Kris] Well, more and more evidence is coming out of how DNA can

494
00:31:30.300 --> 00:31:35.220
identify and track such origin. And,

495
00:31:35.430 --> 00:31:36.700
um, you know,

496
00:31:36.700 --> 00:31:41.140
I think a lot of people are using that to understand more about their

497
00:31:41.150 --> 00:31:46.060
origins. That it is a terrible thing that people who were forcibly taken

498
00:31:46.630 --> 00:31:50.700
to America as slaves do not have that history.

499
00:31:51.430 --> 00:31:55.500
Um, uh, and that culture which they are beginning to discover. I mean,

500
00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:59.260
this is the work of James Baldwin who's written a lot about this,

501
00:31:59.260 --> 00:32:03.860
about the importance of that cult cultural background being missing.

502
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:05.570
[Nolan] Mm-hmm.

503
00:32:05.570 --> 00:32:07.210
[Kris] terrible things for people.

504
00:32:07.670 --> 00:32:11.090
[Matthew]  I'm thinking also, Kris, of the, the, um,

505
00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:15.370
distinction you highlighted, uh,

506
00:32:15.370 --> 00:32:17.770
based on some of the work that's being rest done recently on,

507
00:32:17.770 --> 00:32:21.250
on between people who are categorized,

508
00:32:21.250 --> 00:32:25.610
you were categorized as somewhere and people who categorized as

509
00:32:25.890 --> 00:32:29.530
anywheres. Um, do you remember, um,

510
00:32:30.360 --> 00:32:33.890
that was sort of applied to political views? What,

511
00:32:34.120 --> 00:32:38.010
what was the thinking behind that and how does, how does that manifest itself?

512
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:41.370
[Kris] I think that, um,

513
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:47.130
some people find it quite difficult to take a global view of the world,

514
00:32:48.190 --> 00:32:52.170
and it's often related to right wing politics,

515
00:32:53.300 --> 00:32:56.330
um, with, you know, extreme patriotism.

516
00:32:57.030 --> 00:33:01.130
And those people often psychologically, um,

517
00:33:01.650 --> 00:33:06.450
struggle with their own identity. And this is shown,

518
00:33:06.750 --> 00:33:09.290
you know, in, in debates like Brexit,

519
00:33:09.610 --> 00:33:14.490
where a strong element of not wanting to leave the EU

520
00:33:14.750 --> 00:33:19.450
was the feeling that it was too big an organization we didn't belong.

521
00:33:20.020 --> 00:33:23.730
Whereas other people, and particularly there's an age issue here,

522
00:33:23.730 --> 00:33:28.090
young people in particular who've grown up with social media, um,

523
00:33:28.280 --> 00:33:33.220
have this view that we are a global community and

524
00:33:33.220 --> 00:33:36.100
that, you know, spaceship, we're all in it together.

525
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:40.300
And that perhaps age is much more important than

526
00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:45.530
other aspects of one's identity. And, you know, the gap year

527
00:33:45.570 --> 00:33:45.610
Mhm.

528
00:33:45.610 --> 00:33:50.530
I think epitomizes that so many people have their lives transformed by their

529
00:33:50.530 --> 00:33:54.570
gap year. And I think, you know, it's a great thing that that happens.

530
00:33:56.030 --> 00:34:00.250
[Nolan] Can I hear a bit about your gap year or if you didn't have a gap year,

531
00:34:00.250 --> 00:34:05.010
maybe your first, um, pivotal, uh, travel experience?

532
00:34:05.010 --> 00:34:07.410
Well, that was, you really learned something about yourself or.

533
00:34:07.560 --> 00:34:08.970
[Kris] Yeah. Well, I had, um,

534
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:13.850
a grant to do my PhD and go to America to study

535
00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:16.730
co-ops as a form of organization.

536
00:34:16.910 --> 00:34:20.850
And it was enough money for six months, but when I got there,

537
00:34:21.130 --> 00:34:25.650
everyone was so fantastic and welcoming. It lasted me for two years,

538
00:34:26.170 --> 00:34:28.850
[laughter] Um, and,

539
00:34:28.850 --> 00:34:33.370
and I can remember traveling across America all around cuz co-ops are very

540
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:36.490
funnily enough, very common in America.

541
00:34:36.490 --> 00:34:40.730
They have rural phone cos and food courts, furniture courts,

542
00:34:40.730 --> 00:34:45.210
all sorts of court. So everywhere I went in America, there were co-ops to study.

543
00:34:45.630 --> 00:34:47.410
And I can remember going across America,

544
00:34:47.520 --> 00:34:52.490
I invested some of my grant in a sheep skin coat to keep warm in Washington

545
00:34:52.740 --> 00:34:56.810
DC And I said, I gradually got across the, the country,

546
00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:58.650
I got warm and warmer.

547
00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:03.450
I can remember leaving this sheep skin coat and just been somewhere when I got to

548
00:35:03.450 --> 00:35:06.890
Las Vegas. So that was a great year. And, um,

549
00:35:07.110 --> 00:35:09.570
Las Vegas where I went to a, um,

550
00:35:09.600 --> 00:35:13.170
a conference of farming co-ops was amazing.

551
00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:18.090
Spending all day talking about farming co-ops and coming out in the evening and

552
00:35:18.090 --> 00:35:22.530
the full blast of Las Vegas with the gambling and the lights and

553
00:35:23.010 --> 00:35:27.730
Elvis Presley performing live. So that was my gap year and it was great. And I,

554
00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:31.610
I might add, I got engaged an American but then got homesick,

555
00:35:31.740 --> 00:35:34.450
so I did a bunk and came back to England [laughter]

556
00:35:35.300 --> 00:35:39.480
[Nolan] Oh wow. Oh.

557
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:42.870
Um, so, well of course,

558
00:35:42.990 --> 00:35:47.550
since you did it for your PhD it influenced your career path as well. Um,

559
00:35:47.550 --> 00:35:50.870
but anything else personally, like, did it change the, um,

560
00:35:51.500 --> 00:35:53.510
change the way you approach life at all?

561
00:35:55.450 --> 00:35:59.500
[Kris] I think there are elements. I was asking some the, one of the, uh,

562
00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:04.500
directors of Shell this question just last night, he did a gap year and he was,

563
00:36:04.770 --> 00:36:09.180
went all over and I said, reflect on where you are today,

564
00:36:09.180 --> 00:36:13.420
40 years later. How did that impact on you?

565
00:36:13.560 --> 00:36:18.260
And I think it's a question everyone could ask themselves

566
00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:22.860
Um, and I think for me it was the

567
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:27.460
understanding how generally everywhere you go,

568
00:36:27.460 --> 00:36:30.900
people are really welcoming and nice. You know,

569
00:36:31.010 --> 00:36:35.660
I think there's a default part of human nature that you make strangers

570
00:36:35.660 --> 00:36:40.320
welcome and it's given me tremendous

571
00:36:40.320 --> 00:36:45.280
faith and optimism in the ability of humanity to solve

572
00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:48.840
problems. You know, in spite of wars and things.

573
00:36:48.940 --> 00:36:53.880
I'm still pretty optimistic based on that personal face-to-face

574
00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:57.320
contact with strangers, the kindness of strangers.

575
00:36:58.450 --> 00:36:59.300
[Nolan] Definitely.

576
00:36:59.640 --> 00:37:03.660
And I think that kind of ties into what you mentioned earlier with the politics,

577
00:37:03.660 --> 00:37:08.380
right? Where while right wing politics can be associated with,

578
00:37:08.390 --> 00:37:12.260
um, not having the same global view, um,

579
00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:15.580
and even though I think right wing and left wing is a little bit of a false

580
00:37:15.580 --> 00:37:17.060
dichotomy, uh,

581
00:37:17.060 --> 00:37:22.060
I've noticed people who might have certain right beliefs

582
00:37:22.110 --> 00:37:24.540
or right ways of thinking about certain issues,

583
00:37:25.050 --> 00:37:28.400
they go travel and when they come back,

584
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.080
they might still hold some of the same beliefs.

585
00:37:31.260 --> 00:37:35.120
But when it comes to immigration and when it comes to certain, uh,

586
00:37:35.120 --> 00:37:39.120
ways of approaching those policies, they suddenly have a little bit more of a,

587
00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:44.360
a liberal approach, which is interesting just, just through travel

588
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:45.233
Mhm.

589
00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:48.000
[Kris] And, you know, the world changing all the time. When I,

590
00:37:48.590 --> 00:37:53.000
when I was in my teens, homosexuality was illegal.

591
00:37:53.970 --> 00:37:58.960
Uh, the way women were treated was appalling, you know, and all that is changed.

592
00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:03.880
And young people today have led many of those changes and they

593
00:38:03.880 --> 00:38:07.520
don't even remember those bad old days. So, you know,

594
00:38:07.520 --> 00:38:12.440
I'm very optimistic about that future. And even, you know,

595
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:16.080
at the moment we've got the World Cup being played in Qatar where it

596
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:20.720
homosexuality is illegal. Well, you know, when I grow up it's illegal too.

597
00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:26.080
But I think the more people see that those things happen and it's quite

598
00:38:26.080 --> 00:38:29.880
a normal way of living, um, the better it is. And in the end,

599
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:33.000
I wouldn't be surprised if in, in even 10 years,

600
00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:37.920
countries like Qatar recognize homosexuality and give women

601
00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:38.760
more rights.

602
00:38:39.030 --> 00:38:43.840
It's unstoppable once you meet other people and are exposed to other

603
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:44.673
cultures.

604
00:38:46.090 --> 00:38:50.340
[Nolan] Well, well, for that feels really good to hear from you, Kris, because I,

605
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:53.260
I know you're someone who's very involved and well, you're,

606
00:38:53.260 --> 00:38:55.260
you're an an expert in all of this.

607
00:38:55.260 --> 00:38:59.780
So to hears such op in such an optimistic point of view gives me hope as well.

608
00:39:00.590 --> 00:39:03.660
Um, so Matthew, what about your gap year?

609
00:39:04.970 --> 00:39:06.420
[Matthew]  Well, I, I didn't really,

610
00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:08.900
I suppose to sort of have a gap year and certainly can't compete, uh,

611
00:39:08.970 --> 00:39:13.300
with Kris's fantastic story. But perhaps I, I would, I would highlight.

612
00:39:13.650 --> 00:39:14.740
[Nolan] That was incredible.

613
00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:18.220
[Matthew]  I would highlight her, her great, um,

614
00:39:18.950 --> 00:39:21.700
insight about learn travel,

615
00:39:21.700 --> 00:39:26.060
helping to learn about the kindness of strangers. The first time I went, um,

616
00:39:26.690 --> 00:39:30.420
abroad, we weren't, at the time, my family wasn't very wealthy and we hadn't,

617
00:39:30.470 --> 00:39:34.260
uh, we didn't go abroad. And the first opportunity I had was the, um,

618
00:39:35.560 --> 00:39:39.180
was the, uh, German, uh, German exchange.

619
00:39:39.230 --> 00:39:44.220
We had this sort of scheme or this opportunity to where wherever, uh,

620
00:39:44.370 --> 00:39:48.460
a young person from one family would go and stay with, um,

621
00:39:48.770 --> 00:39:51.300
a young person from another family for, uh,

622
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:56.100
two or three weeks as a way of kind of just immersing herself in this, um,

623
00:39:57.070 --> 00:40:00.340
in a different language, in a different kind of environment.

624
00:40:01.120 --> 00:40:06.120
And I must have been about, uh, Quite 12, 12 years old. I mean,

625
00:40:06.120 --> 00:40:09.560
I, I certainly didn't speak any, uh, any German to any,

626
00:40:09.860 --> 00:40:13.680
any sort of significant degree. And suddenly I was having to go off on my own,

627
00:40:13.810 --> 00:40:17.680
uh, through an airport, which I'd never done before, um, to,

628
00:40:17.680 --> 00:40:22.480
to stay with this family. And it was very alarming,

629
00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:24.120
I suppose, at the time.

630
00:40:24.140 --> 00:40:29.040
But it was fantastic just because it suddenly, uh,

631
00:40:29.040 --> 00:40:33.000
not only was I very welcomed, uh, and we had a very, um,

632
00:40:33.180 --> 00:40:34.280
fascinating time,

633
00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:38.760
but it also was something where you suddenly realized that

634
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:43.760
there were other people in other countries who do live like you do and have

635
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:47.440
the same kind of experiences, but in a slightly kind of different,

636
00:40:47.520 --> 00:40:50.200
different kind of way. And it also, I think,

637
00:40:50.200 --> 00:40:54.600
helps to rethink some of the stereotypes that, uh, happen.

638
00:40:54.600 --> 00:40:59.200
And in Britain, for instance, there's tends to be a very, um,

639
00:41:00.650 --> 00:41:01.960
because of the history,

640
00:41:02.390 --> 00:41:05.920
a very popular sort of attitude towards Germany as a,

641
00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:10.440
a place that we'd fought in two world wars and we lose against it always in the

642
00:41:10.600 --> 00:41:14.880
footballs. So there was this [laughter] popular, uh,

643
00:41:15.140 --> 00:41:19.880
relationship and going there, for instance. And we, we,

644
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:23.440
we went to see many sort of places, but also some of those places, for instance,

645
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:27.680
that have been, uh, very heavily bombed by Britain and America,

646
00:41:27.680 --> 00:41:28.640
the allies in the,

647
00:41:28.640 --> 00:41:32.360
in the second World War and some of the destruction that had been caused woke

648
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:35.920
you up to realize that there was, there was a much bigger,

649
00:41:37.510 --> 00:41:41.440
a much wider perspective that you get on history from, um,

650
00:41:42.070 --> 00:41:46.760
from, uh, from travel than you would've, uh, you would've had otherwise.

651
00:41:47.570 --> 00:41:50.720
So that certainly was a very formative experience.

652
00:41:54.090 --> 00:41:58.370
[Kris] Nolan, one of the, um, one of the things I regret when I was young,

653
00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:01.570
it was quite common to hitchhike.

654
00:42:02.430 --> 00:42:07.210
And I think that sadly now people are a little bit more hesitant

655
00:42:07.210 --> 00:42:08.370
about hitchhiking,

656
00:42:08.670 --> 00:42:13.610
but that used to be great to meet new people and just set off for

657
00:42:13.850 --> 00:42:18.570
a day out and sometimes not know where you might end up and so on. Um,

658
00:42:18.750 --> 00:42:19.850
and, and you know,

659
00:42:20.350 --> 00:42:24.930
now people are talking about shared use of taxes, um,

660
00:42:25.240 --> 00:42:27.330
demand responsive transport.

661
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:32.570
I was in Cyprus where they have shared taxes which go around the village.

662
00:42:32.570 --> 00:42:33.090
And again,

663
00:42:33.090 --> 00:42:36.730
that's back to what we were saying earlier about great experience where you,

664
00:42:36.950 --> 00:42:40.770
you meet other people in a relatively safe environment,

665
00:42:40.950 --> 00:42:45.370
but they're people you wouldn't normally meet or relate to if you just drove

666
00:42:45.370 --> 00:42:49.970
everywhere in the cocoon of your own car all the time. So I think that,

667
00:42:49.970 --> 00:42:53.410
you know, travel in itself is important.

668
00:42:53.550 --> 00:42:58.490
And one of the ways I traveled around America was by coach or

669
00:42:58.490 --> 00:43:02.290
Greyhound Bus. And that was an amazing experience. You know,

670
00:43:02.290 --> 00:43:05.050
people would get on with chickens and goodness says, what?

671
00:43:05.050 --> 00:43:09.930
And you'd end up in the middle of Omaha in the middle of night with all sorts of

672
00:43:09.930 --> 00:43:11.210
odd people and so on.

673
00:43:11.910 --> 00:43:16.890
You imagine if you hadn't had that opportunity to mix with other people in

674
00:43:16.890 --> 00:43:21.490
that way and when you meet them, say, I don't know,

675
00:43:21.490 --> 00:43:23.130
and a dating agent, something,

676
00:43:23.130 --> 00:43:27.370
it's very artificial in the sense that you are stuck together and you've got to

677
00:43:27.370 --> 00:43:29.090
talk. Whereas when you are traveling,

678
00:43:29.090 --> 00:43:31.770
you can sit next to someone and not say anything for a long time,

679
00:43:31.870 --> 00:43:35.570
but then you can say something without even looking at them because you are both

680
00:43:35.570 --> 00:43:39.370
looking forward. So I think there's a lot of dynamic to travel,

681
00:43:39.570 --> 00:43:42.770
which make us the human beings we are probably,

682
00:43:43.140 --> 00:43:47.370
so I'm still interested in coaches and I'm constantly trying to persuade

683
00:43:47.680 --> 00:43:52.010
people to use coaches more. You know, it's not all about trains.

684
00:43:52.090 --> 00:43:55.130
Young people do travel by coaches a lot,

685
00:43:55.130 --> 00:43:57.290
and it's a cheap good form of travel.

686
00:43:57.290 --> 00:44:00.330
And I've actually made a couple of TV programs about coaches,

687
00:44:00.900 --> 00:44:02.530
so I'm very ProCoach.

688
00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:07.710
[Nolan] Ah, okay. Interesting. Now, um, I don't know the stats on this.

689
00:44:07.880 --> 00:44:12.270
Is coach use going down quite a bit or is it, is it, is it steady?

690
00:44:12.270 --> 00:44:14.390
Is it going up? What's, what's happening with that?

691
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:18.270
[Kris] It varies by country and country. I mean,

692
00:44:18.270 --> 00:44:22.430
some countries don't have a very extensive rail network like Scotland,

693
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:27.430
so they've done really imaginative things with coach hubs just outside the big

694
00:44:27.430 --> 00:44:31.800
cities like Edinburgh and Glasgow. Fay has always been good on coaches,

695
00:44:32.260 --> 00:44:37.040
and I would like to see the Motorway network have, if you like,

696
00:44:37.040 --> 00:44:40.520
the equivalent of railway stations at motorway service stations.

697
00:44:40.930 --> 00:44:45.760
So you could get some really good journeys much quicker than going

698
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:50.040
in and out of the cities leaving the motorways. So I think that would be great.

699
00:44:50.040 --> 00:44:53.840
And that would actually be quite inexpensive way of traveling.

700
00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:58.760
[Nolan] Yes, it's true. Definitely. Now, from my experience, what, what,

701
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:03.760
what I've noticed in, um, well, where I grew up in Vancouver, British Columbia,

702
00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.800
well, I grew up in a town close to there, which was five hours away,

703
00:45:07.020 --> 00:45:11.480
and we used to have the Greyhound, and that was a really inexpensive,

704
00:45:11.550 --> 00:45:14.840
easy way to commute, uh, between the cities.

705
00:45:15.580 --> 00:45:17.320
And that doesn't exist anymore.

706
00:45:17.700 --> 00:45:21.760
And now people are relying on car share options.

707
00:45:22.690 --> 00:45:24.860
Um, do you,

708
00:45:24.940 --> 00:45:29.500
would you encourage people to use car share and to push that further?

709
00:45:29.910 --> 00:45:33.460
Um, companies such as blah blah car and things like that?

710
00:45:33.470 --> 00:45:36.580
Or do you think we should have a stronger push for coaches?

711
00:45:38.690 --> 00:45:40.780
[Kris] I, I think we should do both,

712
00:45:41.280 --> 00:45:46.100
but I do think that the countries that have really developed an infrastructure

713
00:45:46.100 --> 00:45:49.100
for coaches show there's huge potential here.

714
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:53.580
And you use a lot less carbon with a coach full of people of course.

715
00:45:53.580 --> 00:45:58.220
And you do car sharing, so do both. But,

716
00:45:58.270 --> 00:46:01.460
um, you know, I think everything you do,

717
00:46:01.830 --> 00:46:05.900
it would be great if people had a ration for travel each year.

718
00:46:05.940 --> 00:46:06.360
Mhm.

719
00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:11.300
and then people who don't travel much could sell their points

720
00:46:11.430 --> 00:46:15.500
to other people. And that would be a good.

721
00:46:15.560 --> 00:46:17.100
[Nolan] Way of, that's a really good idea.

722
00:46:17.130 --> 00:46:19.380
[Kris] What do you think of that? I mean, some people think it.

723
00:46:19.380 --> 00:46:20.260
[Nolan] I love that.

724
00:46:20.410 --> 00:46:24.340
[Kris] Yeah. I mean, some people think that's way outta,

725
00:46:25.120 --> 00:46:26.940
you know, way off the agenda,

726
00:46:26.940 --> 00:46:29.900
but I think that would be quite an interesting idea.

727
00:46:30.820 --> 00:46:32.790
[Nolan] I think so too. And listeners, please,

728
00:46:32.790 --> 00:46:37.070
I'm encouraging you to comment on whatever platform you're listening on right

729
00:46:37.070 --> 00:46:41.550
now or tune into Without Borders or check out the website, Why Travel.  Now,

730
00:46:41.550 --> 00:46:44.990
all the links will be in the description and everything we're talking about at

731
00:46:44.990 --> 00:46:47.190
today. If you have any ideas, um,

732
00:46:47.190 --> 00:46:49.310
I think Matthew and Kris are thinking the same as me,

733
00:46:49.310 --> 00:46:53.630
like please become part of the conversation because this is incredibly important

734
00:46:53.630 --> 00:46:57.710
right now. Um, yeah. Uh, Matthew, what do you think about that?

735
00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:01.470
[Matthew]  I think it's a fascinating, it would be a fascinating experiment.

736
00:47:01.520 --> 00:47:03.390
So I I'm sure it would be,

737
00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:08.830
I fear it would be politically impossible simply because, uh,

738
00:47:08.830 --> 00:47:12.910
you could imagine what certain aspects of the media would say that this was like

739
00:47:12.910 --> 00:47:15.110
a totalitarian kind of, uh,

740
00:47:15.390 --> 00:47:20.350
state restricting our travel to a certain number of miles a year. And, um,

741
00:47:20.350 --> 00:47:23.910
people would see this as an incredible infringement on their,

742
00:47:23.910 --> 00:47:28.590
on their liberties. When actually, if I think as a, as a social,

743
00:47:28.760 --> 00:47:33.240
uh, experiment, it would be a fascinating way actually of,

744
00:47:33.330 --> 00:47:37.720
of making travel probably more equitable. And, um,

745
00:47:39.020 --> 00:47:43.520
and also I think making people rethink why they're traveling.

746
00:47:43.520 --> 00:47:48.400
If you had a travel budget and where to prioritize their, um, travel means.

747
00:47:48.450 --> 00:47:51.040
Another question would be, would be how are you going to do it?

748
00:47:51.040 --> 00:47:55.080
Are you going to do it in terms of the number of miles you travel each year,

749
00:47:55.090 --> 00:47:58.280
or are you going to budget it in some other way? Because of course,

750
00:47:58.280 --> 00:47:59.680
if it's by the number of miles,

751
00:48:00.030 --> 00:48:04.320
that would encourage people perhaps to focus more on, on local travel,

752
00:48:04.770 --> 00:48:07.920
uh, than on, um, than on long distance. You.

753
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:11.640
[Kris] Could have a lifetime allowance, couldn't you? And then, you know,

754
00:48:11.640 --> 00:48:16.600
you could get to be 80 and you find it, you used your miles up [laughter]

755
00:48:18.030 --> 00:48:18.863
[Nolan] Yeah.

756
00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:20.193
[Kris] [laughter]

757
00:48:20.260 --> 00:48:23.040
[Nolan] I'm gonna give this some thought. I'm gonna give this some thought.

758
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:25.233
[Matthew]  [laughter]

759
00:48:25.770 --> 00:48:29.440
[Nolan] Um, now to bring us into a slightly different direction,

760
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:33.440
but just talking about equity and all, well, equality here,

761
00:48:33.630 --> 00:48:36.880
this is a topic that's come up on the show a few times,

762
00:48:37.540 --> 00:48:42.400
and that's kind of the, the racism that's, um,

763
00:48:42.550 --> 00:48:47.360
existent in the bureaucratic system when it comes to travel and the ability to

764
00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:49.520
move. Um, for instance,

765
00:48:49.790 --> 00:48:54.400
people who come from many developed nations are able to go

766
00:48:54.610 --> 00:48:58.200
to other countries freely and easily, right?

767
00:48:58.200 --> 00:49:02.680
Whereas people from a lot of, um, developing nations,

768
00:49:02.680 --> 00:49:06.800
they don't have this type of freedom and the bureaucratic process just makes it

769
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:11.240
hell for them. And I've noticed it firsthand, uh, moving to Spain,

770
00:49:12.160 --> 00:49:13.320
[laughter], to be honest, the bureaucrat,

771
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.600
the bureaucracy in Spain is slow for everyone. It's a bit of a pain in the ass,

772
00:49:17.600 --> 00:49:21.080
or we say in Spanish grano en el culo, um, [laughter]

773
00:49:21.420 --> 00:49:26.280
But for me it's been quite easy because I hold a Belgian passport and a Canadian

774
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:30.640
passport. I'm one of those lucky, lucky guys. Um,

775
00:49:30.640 --> 00:49:31.920
but my girlfriend,

776
00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:37.160
she's from Ukraine and she's just

777
00:49:37.160 --> 00:49:40.480
been going through hell with the with the bureaucratic process,

778
00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:44.680
and they make it so difficult and there are so many more steps to go through.

779
00:49:45.220 --> 00:49:48.960
And it took the war for her to be able to come to Canada.

780
00:49:49.010 --> 00:49:53.280
So she applied just, this was just for a traveler's visa, right?

781
00:49:53.420 --> 00:49:57.640
And she's a girl without, without a criminal record, um,

782
00:49:57.670 --> 00:50:02.120
like goes to school but doesn't have money in the bank,

783
00:50:02.740 --> 00:50:06.560
and she's Ukrainian. So even though she's family,

784
00:50:06.560 --> 00:50:09.840
because we we're common law, parejo de hecho, um,

785
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:13.840
she's got rejected from Canada just for entering for a holiday,

786
00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:18.480
and then the war broke out and then she applied again, and then they're like,

787
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:19.560
okay, now you're allowed in.

788
00:50:19.850 --> 00:50:24.320
So it took a war for her to be treated the same as I did. Um,

789
00:50:24.950 --> 00:50:27.120
what are some ways we can fix that?

790
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:32.200
Because I think that's a huge issue when it comes to travel and in a sense

791
00:50:32.640 --> 00:50:33.473
transport.

792
00:50:35.210 --> 00:50:38.380
[Kris] I had an aunt who, well, I mean a bit loony,

793
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:44.020
but I think her view was that we should abolish passports

794
00:50:44.020 --> 00:50:48.980
completely and see how people distributed themselves

795
00:50:49.050 --> 00:50:53.340
around the world. And I know it sounds ridiculous,

796
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:58.340
but I think if we didn't have all these borders and bureaucratic things,

797
00:50:58.350 --> 00:51:03.220
we might be pleasantly surprised after all in the uk anyone

798
00:51:03.220 --> 00:51:07.780
from the Commonwealth could come and live here until the 1960s when we started

799
00:51:08.050 --> 00:51:10.540
having rules about things. And, you know,

800
00:51:10.540 --> 00:51:13.260
it was a re reasonable way of managing,

801
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:17.180
we advertised for staff when we needed them in the NHS and so on,

802
00:51:17.440 --> 00:51:19.540
and it didn't get outta hand.

803
00:51:19.950 --> 00:51:24.940
So I do wonder what would happen if we just abolished borders,

804
00:51:24.940 --> 00:51:28.180
which is of course the name of your podcast.

805
00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:30.900
And I think we panic.

806
00:51:31.170 --> 00:51:31.940
[Nolan] I think a lot.

807
00:51:31.940 --> 00:51:35.980
[Kris] About, yeah, we think about that. We think we panic about it,

808
00:51:35.980 --> 00:51:37.460
and maybe we don't need to.

809
00:51:38.570 --> 00:51:41.260
[Matthew]  It's very interesting aspect because when you say without borders,

810
00:51:41.460 --> 00:51:42.230
actually within Europe,

811
00:51:42.230 --> 00:51:46.740
there's been this fantastic experiment to remove borders. Uh, you know,

812
00:51:46.740 --> 00:51:50.340
the whole principle of the sort of the Schengen movement has, uh,

813
00:51:50.480 --> 00:51:54.500
has been to do this. And it's very interesting to see the way in which, uh,

814
00:51:54.500 --> 00:51:58.060
that's, that's developed and, um, how that's changed,

815
00:51:58.060 --> 00:52:01.380
particularly for younger people, their experience of travel moving across.

816
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:05.780
And interestingly, when Kris mentions about, uh, the immigration policy,

817
00:52:05.780 --> 00:52:10.340
of course, in Britain until very recently, uh, we had this, um,

818
00:52:10.890 --> 00:52:14.540
sort of freedom of movement that we were part of, uh,

819
00:52:14.550 --> 00:52:19.340
in across the whole European continent. Um, and that, uh,

820
00:52:19.340 --> 00:52:21.980
resulted in, um, you know,

821
00:52:22.010 --> 00:52:26.500
a a very open sort of system of travel across Europe. And of what,

822
00:52:26.500 --> 00:52:28.900
what has happened, sadly, is that, um,

823
00:52:29.190 --> 00:52:31.660
as we saw that,

824
00:52:32.490 --> 00:52:36.580
when that was used by many people to come and live and work in Britain,

825
00:52:36.960 --> 00:52:41.940
you ended up with the, uh, Brexit referendum, which then, uh, put a stop to it.

826
00:52:42.200 --> 00:52:46.820
And amazingly now they're ending up in a situation where I think,

827
00:52:46.870 --> 00:52:51.300
uh, from next year, people in Britain will face the same,

828
00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:55.860
some of the same obstacles that you mentioned, because before, uh,

829
00:52:56.040 --> 00:52:58.580
the, um, Brexit happened,

830
00:52:58.910 --> 00:53:03.580
Britain was involved in developing a new mechanism

831
00:53:03.880 --> 00:53:08.700
for increasing security around in terms of entry and exit to the

832
00:53:08.780 --> 00:53:10.060
European Union, which of course,

833
00:53:10.340 --> 00:53:12.700
all British people are now going to be subject to.

834
00:53:13.000 --> 00:53:17.580
And I think with fingerprinting and all kinds of other bureaucratic

835
00:53:17.580 --> 00:53:18.210
measures,

836
00:53:18.210 --> 00:53:22.100
it's going to be interesting to see how people react when they realize that as

837
00:53:22.100 --> 00:53:26.680
difficult as travel out of the UK at the moment is it's going to become to

838
00:53:26.680 --> 00:53:30.040
Europe, it's gonna become a whole lot more difficult, uh, from next May.

839
00:53:31.170 --> 00:53:35.320
So it's, it's a great idea in theory, but I think as,

840
00:53:35.450 --> 00:53:40.440
as we've experienced in, in our country, um, it's, uh,

841
00:53:40.750 --> 00:53:44.840
a policy which sadly seems to result in, um,

842
00:53:45.690 --> 00:53:48.600
in a lot of pushback socially.

843
00:53:51.700 --> 00:53:56.230
[Nolan] Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Complicated issues. A lot to think about here.

844
00:53:56.230 --> 00:54:01.150
[Kris] Don't you think it might be fun if we had a bigger worldwide system of swapping

845
00:54:01.150 --> 00:54:05.190
lives with each other for a year? You know,

846
00:54:05.220 --> 00:54:07.070
I wouldn't mind living in Africa.

847
00:54:07.450 --> 00:54:11.430
I'd swap with someone from Africa and it would be so easy.

848
00:54:11.430 --> 00:54:14.150
He could have my flat and I could live in his heart.

849
00:54:15.470 --> 00:54:19.540
[Nolan] Oh, definitely. And the people I know who do that, they have nothing but, uh,

850
00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:20.940
interesting stories and they,

851
00:54:20.970 --> 00:54:24.900
I've never heard a negative experience from the people who do these house swaps.

852
00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:27.500
, I've always heard something interesting about it,

853
00:54:27.510 --> 00:54:31.020
Okay. Yeah, I I'm definitely on that side as well.

854
00:54:31.190 --> 00:54:34.500
[Kris] So let's have a bigger swapping system. [laughter]

855
00:54:35.560 --> 00:54:38.570
[Nolan] I agree. [laughter], um,

856
00:54:39.150 --> 00:54:42.530
now abolishing passports. I mean,

857
00:54:43.040 --> 00:54:44.850
I haven't really thought about that that much.

858
00:54:44.950 --> 00:54:48.890
I'd have to think about it a bit more to have anything useful to say.

859
00:54:49.660 --> 00:54:51.090
Um, but of course,

860
00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:55.570
having more of like a European system spread around the world,

861
00:54:55.600 --> 00:54:59.410
that's something I'd be all for. But Matthew, as you state as well, it,

862
00:54:59.410 --> 00:55:03.090
it's very difficult and that actually might end up resulting in even more

863
00:55:03.410 --> 00:55:05.570
pushback in the end. Um,

864
00:55:05.870 --> 00:55:10.090
now an another thing that I've learned about is

865
00:55:10.710 --> 00:55:12.770
the, this Project Plumia

866
00:55:13.230 --> 00:55:17.410
and they're looking to create an online country,

867
00:55:18.230 --> 00:55:22.340
and you could, the idea behind it is that you could get a,

868
00:55:22.340 --> 00:55:25.860
like a passport from this country and then like,

869
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:30.780
that would allow you to travel from there. Now, um, that.

870
00:55:30.780 --> 00:55:31.420
[Matthew]  Sounds fascinating.

871
00:55:31.420 --> 00:55:36.350
[Nolan] What it looks like is to be able Yeah, it's very interesting.

872
00:55:36.350 --> 00:55:40.990
Now, I'm, I'm, I like the idea behind it, right? Because the,

873
00:55:40.990 --> 00:55:45.030
their mission statements are about making it more inclusive and giving people,

874
00:55:45.520 --> 00:55:45.870
um,

875
00:55:45.870 --> 00:55:50.710
from developing nations the same opportunity to be able to travel and not go

876
00:55:50.710 --> 00:55:54.830
through the same bureaucratic or go through those bureaucratic nightmares.

877
00:55:55.640 --> 00:55:58.150
Um, but on the flip side,

878
00:55:58.170 --> 00:56:02.910
the only way they they're thinking right now to obtain this is that there has to

879
00:56:02.910 --> 00:56:04.990
be, uh, a certain check,

880
00:56:04.990 --> 00:56:09.830
and that check involves your career and your income. Right?

881
00:56:10.070 --> 00:56:11.470
Which of course, again,

882
00:56:11.470 --> 00:56:15.830
causes problems because then you're holding people back who didn't have the

883
00:56:15.830 --> 00:56:18.110
opportunity to make a certain amount of money.

884
00:56:19.420 --> 00:56:23.960
What do you think about this idea of an online country? Do you,

885
00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:27.440
do you think this is a good idea? Do you think this is plausible?

886
00:56:28.470 --> 00:56:29.640
[Kris] I think it's, um,

887
00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:34.600
interesting because if you think of some of the countries like Ireland

888
00:56:35.000 --> 00:56:37.360
where they've been fighting each other for years,

889
00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:39.840
and it's all about the boundaries.

890
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:44.840
Imagine if you just self-identified of which country

891
00:56:44.840 --> 00:56:49.120
you felt you wanted to pay your taxes to, you know,

892
00:56:49.120 --> 00:56:53.360
would be a bit like the American system, a local and national tax, wouldn't it?

893
00:56:53.540 --> 00:56:55.000
And then, then you,

894
00:56:55.020 --> 00:56:58.520
you would have an income and you would respect the laws of that country,

895
00:56:58.780 --> 00:57:03.320
and it might avoid many of the territorial civil

896
00:57:03.350 --> 00:57:06.960
fights that go on. So I think it's very interesting. I hadn't heard about it,

897
00:57:06.960 --> 00:57:11.640
but I'd really like to know more about that. Maybe you could develop that idea,

898
00:57:11.640 --> 00:57:12.473
Nolan.

899
00:57:12.750 --> 00:57:14.960
[Nolan] Yeah, I'll send it to, you'll, I'll send you an article.

900
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:18.640
I wrote about it as well. It was one of the first articles on my website. Now,

901
00:57:18.640 --> 00:57:23.440
the other thing that scares me a little bit from it is that, um,

902
00:57:23.550 --> 00:57:28.000
it's a sister company of Safety Wing, now Safety Wing's,

903
00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:32.720
an insurance company for nomads. I used them. I, I loved them. Uh,

904
00:57:32.720 --> 00:57:34.760
they were way less expensive than all the others.

905
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:39.120
The customer support was amazing. So as a business, I do like them. Yeah.

906
00:57:39.120 --> 00:57:43.720
But just the idea of an insurance company being the parent company

907
00:57:44.130 --> 00:57:46.440
of a country of a, I think.

908
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:47.040
[Matthew]  Of, I.

909
00:57:47.040 --> 00:57:49.880
[Nolan] Think country kind of makes me nervous. You've.

910
00:57:49.880 --> 00:57:52.960
[Matthew]  Hit the nail on the head there, because of course, in a physical country,

911
00:57:53.410 --> 00:57:56.960
we have something called a government, which at least in democratic countries,

912
00:57:56.960 --> 00:58:00.600
you have some kind of say over who is making the laws and,

913
00:58:00.740 --> 00:58:04.320
and what kind of laws there are. Whereas in an online country,

914
00:58:04.320 --> 00:58:08.600
you're going to have to have some kind of person or some kind of company at

915
00:58:08.600 --> 00:58:13.320
least that is administrating that, um, that online, uh, world.

916
00:58:13.780 --> 00:58:17.720
And unless there's some way in which the citizens of that online world can

917
00:58:17.720 --> 00:58:21.400
participate in that company, maybe it needs to be a mutual or, or a cooperative,

918
00:58:21.570 --> 00:58:25.200
uh, to make it work. Uh, well. Perhaps that's the,

919
00:58:25.200 --> 00:58:30.200
that's the next step. Create a, create a software, uh, cooperative,

920
00:58:30.200 --> 00:58:33.360
which, uh, can operate as the government and in which all the,

921
00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:35.960
all the participants have some kind of say, you're going to need that,

922
00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:39.680
I think just politically speaking, in order for it to have to work,

923
00:58:39.680 --> 00:58:40.760
I think in the longer term.

924
00:58:42.770 --> 00:58:46.500
[Nolan] Yeah, definitely. Uh, Kris,

925
00:58:46.520 --> 00:58:47.780
any other thoughts on this?

926
00:58:48.410 --> 00:58:49.243
[Kris] Well,

927
00:58:49.890 --> 00:58:54.220
what I think is that the technology that is developing

928
00:58:55.060 --> 00:58:59.420
could be actually the roots of very democratically run country,

929
00:58:59.420 --> 00:59:01.900
because you could immediately vote on everything.

930
00:59:01.900 --> 00:59:06.900
You'd have a referendum even more than the Swiss do at the moment. Um,

931
00:59:07.080 --> 00:59:11.940
and so you could say that it's a technologically driven democracy,

932
00:59:11.940 --> 00:59:12.780
couldn't you?

933
00:59:13.610 --> 00:59:18.600
[Nolan] Yeah. Okay. A lot, lots to think about. Here again,

934
00:59:18.600 --> 00:59:22.500
listeners, please become part of, of the conversation. Um,

935
00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:26.420
and okay, well here, we're coming up on an hour here,

936
00:59:26.420 --> 00:59:31.100
but have a few more things I want to cover now. Uh, there was one quote,

937
00:59:31.350 --> 00:59:34.060
uh, Matthew that I, uh,

938
00:59:34.060 --> 00:59:37.780
I didn't fully understand and I I was wondering if you could expand on it,

939
00:59:37.780 --> 00:59:42.700
because it's in the philosophy chapter, and it's the one, the,

940
00:59:43.080 --> 00:59:47.340
the soul is no traveler. The wise man stays at home,

941
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:48.980
and when his necessities,

942
00:59:48.980 --> 00:59:53.460
his duties on any occasion call him from his house or into foreign lands,

943
00:59:53.750 --> 00:59:55.340
he is at home still.

944
00:59:58.130 --> 01:00:02.940
[Matthew]  Well, I, I think in this, in this chapter, I mean, what struck me when, uh,

945
01:00:04.010 --> 01:00:08.860
when preparing it was that actually a lot of philosophers were real travel

946
01:00:08.890 --> 01:00:11.370
skeptics. Um,

947
01:00:11.600 --> 01:00:16.450
I think many of them looked at the people around them rushing around and,

948
01:00:16.710 --> 01:00:19.730
and moving from place to place. Uh, and they were,

949
01:00:19.840 --> 01:00:22.690
some of them were really sort of trying to think about, well, what,

950
01:00:22.890 --> 01:00:27.730
what are these people actually doing? Um, but when reading, you know,

951
01:00:27.730 --> 01:00:32.090
for instance, some of the, the stoics or people like, um, uh,

952
01:00:32.090 --> 01:00:36.170
Thoreau and others, you realize that they actually have made a very good, um,

953
01:00:36.480 --> 01:00:40.690
a set of very good points, which is that travel is much more, um,

954
01:00:40.720 --> 01:00:45.210
worthwhile and beneficial when we actually have a good understanding of why we

955
01:00:45.210 --> 01:00:50.090
are doing it and have thought properly about the reasons why

956
01:00:50.090 --> 01:00:53.210
we are doing it, and making sure that it's for, uh, for a good reason.

957
01:00:53.660 --> 01:00:55.610
Because as we know, I mean,

958
01:00:55.680 --> 01:01:00.170
a lot of international jet setting happens really in an a,

959
01:01:00.170 --> 01:01:04.370
in a way in which people are almost sort of escaping from

960
01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:09.450
some of the problems that perhaps it would be better that they sorted out kind

961
01:01:09.450 --> 01:01:14.250
of closer to home, or, uh, it may be for instance that, um,

962
01:01:15.120 --> 01:01:19.170
travel is being done for reasons which perhaps,

963
01:01:19.780 --> 01:01:22.410
uh, are not very, uh,

964
01:01:23.310 --> 01:01:27.490
are not very edifying, for example.

965
01:01:27.530 --> 01:01:28.363
[Nolan] Mhm.

966
01:01:28.460 --> 01:01:33.130
[Matthew]  So I think, I think that was really a, an interesting,

967
01:01:33.260 --> 01:01:37.970
um, way of, uh, from the, from the point that was being made,

968
01:01:38.640 --> 01:01:42.930
a way of trying to get us to think much more deeply about are we traveling for

969
01:01:42.930 --> 01:01:44.730
good reasons or for bad reasons.

970
01:01:47.080 --> 01:01:47.910
[Nolan] Yes.

971
01:01:47.910 --> 01:01:52.760
[Kris] Uh, I can't, I have to say I'm a little bit opposed to that.

972
01:01:52.790 --> 01:01:57.280
I think some of the greatest experiences in life are when something

973
01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:02.280
unexpected happens and you take a risk and, and I think,

974
01:02:02.280 --> 01:02:06.440
you know, carefully considering exactly why you're traveling,

975
01:02:06.760 --> 01:02:11.600
probably wouldn't go out very much. So, you know, I like chance in life.

976
01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:13.733
[Nolan] Mm-hmm. .

977
01:02:14.540 --> 01:02:15.470
[Matthew]  Well, okay. Well.

978
01:02:15.620 --> 01:02:16.510
[Nolan] I think for me.

979
01:02:16.580 --> 01:02:19.920
[Matthew]  I would, I would say to, to defend the Waldo that maybe, um,

980
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:24.200
we're looking at what he was trying to say was that we can get those chance

981
01:02:24.200 --> 01:02:26.800
experiences closer to home, uh,

982
01:02:26.850 --> 01:02:31.720
through observing and interacting more carefully and

983
01:02:31.720 --> 01:02:36.360
closely with those around us, uh, than having to travel a hundred, uh,

984
01:02:36.510 --> 01:02:41.320
a hundred miles to do so. Um, it's a different perspective. Both,

985
01:02:41.320 --> 01:02:43.920
both sides can be argued convincingly.

986
01:02:46.660 --> 01:02:47.310
[Nolan] Well, Kris,

987
01:02:47.310 --> 01:02:51.190
that actually kind of makes me think of what you said at the beginning of our

988
01:02:51.190 --> 01:02:55.150
conversation. As you mentioned, where you grew up, you had, uh, in your city,

989
01:02:55.880 --> 01:03:00.270
um, the section where a lot, was it, did you say Hindus? Hindus.

990
01:03:00.270 --> 01:03:01.350
[Kris] And Muslims, different.

991
01:03:01.350 --> 01:03:01.910
[Nolan] Muslims.

992
01:03:01.910 --> 01:03:02.910
[Kris] Of the town. Yeah.

993
01:03:03.490 --> 01:03:07.750
[Nolan] And they, and they don't mix and they stay apart. Um, now of course,

994
01:03:07.750 --> 01:03:11.150
I think we all kind of have the perspective that people should mix and people

995
01:03:11.150 --> 01:03:15.150
should learn about each other's cultures. Um, but someone might,

996
01:03:15.150 --> 01:03:16.390
might make the argument, oh,

997
01:03:16.580 --> 01:03:20.630
I can just stay in my city and I can learn about these different cultures.

998
01:03:20.940 --> 01:03:23.190
I can go to the Muslim area.

999
01:03:23.190 --> 01:03:26.950
I can go to the Hindu new area and do it that way. Now,

1000
01:03:27.270 --> 01:03:31.390
would you encourage people to do that over

1001
01:03:31.510 --> 01:03:35.630
traveling? Or do you think that, that it's not really,

1002
01:03:36.240 --> 01:03:40.670
um, a, a yes or no here? Like you can do both or you should do both?

1003
01:03:41.060 --> 01:03:45.910
[Kris] I think what I was referring to really was the reaction to this idea

1004
01:03:45.910 --> 01:03:50.790
that Paris has developed the 15 minute neighborhood where everything you

1005
01:03:50.790 --> 01:03:54.510
need on a very day-to-day basis is locally

1006
01:03:55.450 --> 01:03:58.310
and great, you know, it saves carbon.

1007
01:03:59.010 --> 01:04:03.870
But I was trying to counter at that with the idea that you stay in

1008
01:04:03.870 --> 01:04:08.370
your own little hub with all the things you need for your own

1009
01:04:08.370 --> 01:04:09.203
culture,

1010
01:04:09.630 --> 01:04:14.490
and it feels comfortable and convenient and you can

1011
01:04:14.490 --> 01:04:17.290
patch yourself on the back. You're saying, you are saying carbon,

1012
01:04:17.830 --> 01:04:22.610
but you aren't developing that understanding of

1013
01:04:22.880 --> 01:04:25.170
what you would gain from mixing better.

1014
01:04:25.170 --> 01:04:27.610
And you don't even go to the middle of town often.

1015
01:04:28.580 --> 01:04:31.520
And so you have your own culture, your own doctors,

1016
01:04:31.550 --> 01:04:35.440
your own religious groups. And I just felt,

1017
01:04:36.200 --> 01:04:36.740
you know,

1018
01:04:36.740 --> 01:04:41.740
I'm not surprised they've started fighting each other a bit because they don't

1019
01:04:42.020 --> 01:04:44.620
ever meet each other. They don't go to the same schools,

1020
01:04:44.620 --> 01:04:48.120
they have different schools. That to me,

1021
01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:50.560
instinctively is not a good idea.

1022
01:04:50.780 --> 01:04:53.880
And I was very worried that the co you know,

1023
01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:58.620
the carbon debate was encouraging the development of that,

1024
01:04:58.620 --> 01:05:01.460
the planning of communities like that. Um,

1025
01:05:01.460 --> 01:05:04.860
and I felt out ought to counteract that a bit, at least.

1026
01:05:06.290 --> 01:05:09.860
[Nolan] I completely agree with you. If it didn't lead to an audio spike,

1027
01:05:09.860 --> 01:05:14.500
I would be clapping right now. [laughter] But yeah. Um,

1028
01:05:14.500 --> 01:05:16.420
alright. One, one more because I,

1029
01:05:16.420 --> 01:05:20.760
I really want to encourage the listeners to check out your website as well and,

1030
01:05:20.850 --> 01:05:23.080
uh, become part of the conversation. And it,

1031
01:05:23.080 --> 01:05:27.240
you have all these leaflets where you briefly summarize a lot of the points that

1032
01:05:27.240 --> 01:05:28.200
are in the book as well.

1033
01:05:28.820 --> 01:05:32.320
And one that I thought was an interesting question to think about and I was

1034
01:05:32.320 --> 01:05:36.560
hoping you both could give us an answer and then the listeners could always tune

1035
01:05:36.560 --> 01:05:37.340
in afterwards.

1036
01:05:37.340 --> 01:05:42.280
But it's what role do the emotions play in our travel choices and behavior

1037
01:05:42.420 --> 01:05:46.360
and how can transport systems incorporate these insights?

1038
01:05:50.190 --> 01:05:50.950
[Kris] Right. Well.

1039
01:05:50.950 --> 01:05:52.190
[Matthew]  Emotions and travel.

1040
01:05:52.190 --> 01:05:54.750
[Nolan] Kris, I know we've touched on it already a little bit, right? Yes,

1041
01:05:54.750 --> 01:05:57.870
we've touched on it in different ways, but just to summarize some of the points.

1042
01:05:58.260 --> 01:06:00.270
[Kris] I would hone in on loneliness.

1043
01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:05.390
I think increasingly in our society, people are lonely.

1044
01:06:05.390 --> 01:06:09.870
It's partly cuz we are living longer and, um, you know, there are a lot of,

1045
01:06:09.870 --> 01:06:13.270
we're an aging society. Many elderly people are alone,

1046
01:06:13.500 --> 01:06:15.830
many divorced people are living alone.

1047
01:06:16.250 --> 01:06:21.060
And I don't think that's very good if you don't travel

1048
01:06:21.060 --> 01:06:23.140
around and meet other people. So,

1049
01:06:23.750 --> 01:06:27.980
whereas in the past we lived in larger communities,

1050
01:06:28.010 --> 01:06:30.300
a lot of life took place in the streets.

1051
01:06:31.090 --> 01:06:35.980
I meet a lot of isolated people. And so I think that travel,

1052
01:06:35.980 --> 01:06:40.780
particularly the informal travel of sitting next to someone in the bus or a

1053
01:06:40.780 --> 01:06:42.100
train or a pot bench,

1054
01:06:42.850 --> 01:06:47.540
that is the way forward for humanity and our own mental

1055
01:06:47.540 --> 01:06:48.373
health.

1056
01:06:51.450 --> 01:06:56.260
[Matthew]  It's a very, uh, good point Kris makes. And on the transport side,

1057
01:06:56.350 --> 01:06:59.860
um, it made me think of, uh, at the French,

1058
01:06:59.860 --> 01:07:04.340
you're always very good about, uh, in their policy making,

1059
01:07:04.570 --> 01:07:06.740
sort of thinking about these big, big issues.

1060
01:07:06.740 --> 01:07:11.500
And I think there was an experiment, um, on SNCF the, um,

1061
01:07:11.890 --> 01:07:14.980
French, uh, rail company to have different,

1062
01:07:14.980 --> 01:07:19.220
what they called ambiances in their carriages on the,

1063
01:07:19.270 --> 01:07:22.620
on the trains. So I think one was a,

1064
01:07:22.970 --> 01:07:27.540
a sort of play carriage where, you know, particularly for, for kids could,

1065
01:07:27.910 --> 01:07:32.420
um, sort of do the kind of things that, uh, they,

1066
01:07:32.420 --> 01:07:35.220
they wanted to, to sort of focus on. Um,

1067
01:07:35.520 --> 01:07:40.300
one carriage was a sort of a sort of library carriage, if you like,

1068
01:07:40.300 --> 01:07:44.460
for, for those who wanted quiet sort of contemplation. Um,

1069
01:07:44.490 --> 01:07:49.140
I think another was, uh, a sort of social courage where you could do your,

1070
01:07:49.670 --> 01:07:54.340
um, you could eat sort of around a table and, and sort of have a chat.

1071
01:07:54.470 --> 01:07:57.940
Uh, so I thought that that's perhaps something that, um,

1072
01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:01.540
you can obviously do it on a train in a way which you, you can't do in,

1073
01:08:01.540 --> 01:08:02.340
in other places,

1074
01:08:02.340 --> 01:08:06.380
but you could perhaps incorporate it at stations and other other aspects because

1075
01:08:06.940 --> 01:08:11.260
everybody is facing faces different on a daily basis, uh,

1076
01:08:11.260 --> 01:08:13.340
different issues and, you know, has,

1077
01:08:13.340 --> 01:08:17.920
is facing a different sort of set of emotions and perhaps perhaps we should

1078
01:08:17.920 --> 01:08:22.040
think about kind of trying to cater more for, for each of those in, uh,

1079
01:08:22.040 --> 01:08:23.280
in the transport planning.

1080
01:08:25.610 --> 01:08:28.220
[Nolan] I haven't thought about that and I love that idea.

1081
01:08:28.220 --> 01:08:31.580
Definitely sounds a lot better than the classist system we have now where you

1082
01:08:31.580 --> 01:08:33.980
either have the choice between coach and first class,

1083
01:08:34.240 --> 01:08:37.780
but having the choice between, okay, here's where you can work, uh,

1084
01:08:37.780 --> 01:08:41.620
here's where you can study, here's, here's where you can socialize. That sounds,

1085
01:08:42.170 --> 01:08:46.540
that sounds much better. I think, you know, on some trains it exists in a way.

1086
01:08:46.540 --> 01:08:48.100
The trains that have bars, [laughter],

1087
01:08:48.240 --> 01:08:52.140
you can socialize at the bar and you can work on the seat, but no,

1088
01:08:52.140 --> 01:08:56.860
I I love that idea. Okay. Well, uh, Kris, Matthew,

1089
01:08:57.300 --> 01:09:01.340
anything else you want to touch on before we end today's show?

1090
01:09:02.530 --> 01:09:03.540
[Kris] I think that, um,

1091
01:09:03.540 --> 01:09:07.700
we've covered an awful lot and actually you've made me think too,

1092
01:09:07.810 --> 01:09:12.660
I think the conversation has got a lot of open-ended ideas of where we

1093
01:09:12.660 --> 01:09:15.060
might go. So I think it's the beginning,

1094
01:09:15.260 --> 01:09:19.900
not the end of a conversation and the without borders aspect is

1095
01:09:19.900 --> 01:09:22.540
really interesting. And if we are going to, you know,

1096
01:09:22.770 --> 01:09:25.940
find a way of creating peace in the world,

1097
01:09:26.650 --> 01:09:31.180
I do think travel has an important part to play. That's my last message, really.

1098
01:09:31.970 --> 01:09:34.300
[Nolan] Well, thank you Kris. I I hope we have,

1099
01:09:34.300 --> 01:09:36.900
I hope I have you on the show again because as you say,

1100
01:09:36.900 --> 01:09:39.860
it feels like the conversation has kind of just started.

1101
01:09:40.410 --> 01:09:44.580
[Matthew]  Absolutely. And we, we'd love to, uh, to do that, I'm sure, uh, uh,

1102
01:09:44.580 --> 01:09:47.820
because there's, there's such, it's such an enormous topic.

1103
01:09:47.820 --> 01:09:52.380
And one of the things that struck us when preparing this project and writing

1104
01:09:52.380 --> 01:09:56.900
this book is that travel is such a fundamental part of human existence.

1105
01:09:57.110 --> 01:10:01.780
Um, it's something which pretty much everyone does in some form or another,

1106
01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:06.380
and it's another a reason for instance, why on travel and transport questions,

1107
01:10:06.380 --> 01:10:09.700
everybody has an opinion because it's something that, uh, that we,

1108
01:10:09.700 --> 01:10:13.740
that we all do. So as, as Kris says, this is,

1109
01:10:13.740 --> 01:10:18.660
this is very much a way of starting discussion, uh, we hope and, um,

1110
01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:22.340
and debate. And it's, it's been a great today to,

1111
01:10:22.390 --> 01:10:25.900
to talk about these issues with you because it's, it's helped sort of reinforce,

1112
01:10:26.160 --> 01:10:29.340
you know, there are, there are an enormous, uh,

1113
01:10:29.340 --> 01:10:32.100
number of ways in which all these questions are connected.

1114
01:10:34.220 --> 01:10:36.680
[Nolan] Yes. All right, Matthew, Kris,

1115
01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:40.600
thank you so much for coming on the show today. I learned a lot from you.

1116
01:10:40.920 --> 01:10:44.000
Remember listeners, this was Without Borders.

1117
01:10:44.180 --> 01:10:49.000
You can join in on the conversation@withoutborders.fyi and

1118
01:10:49.000 --> 01:10:52.640
Why Travel Links will be in the description. Tune in next time.