E18 - Discussing self-esteem, culture and morality with Dr. Steven Heine
Nolan Yuma meets one of his intellectual heroes, Dr. Steven Heine. They discuss culture, how crops affect sociopolitical views, self-esteem variations around the world, morality, and Steve's latest book, DNA is Not Destiny.
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[Nolan] Inescapably Foreign. Welcome to Without Borders. I'm your host, Nolan Yuma.</v>
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If this is your first time tuning into the show,
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know that this is the podcast for nomads, expats, uh,
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third culture kids,
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or anyone else that feels inescapably foreign. Today.
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I'm here with Dr. Steven j Heine.
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He's a scholar and a professor of social and cultural psychology at
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UBC, that's the University of British Columbia, where I went.
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His research has challenged key psychological assumptions and self-esteem,
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meaning, and the ways people understand genetic constructs.
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And if you've listened to the show before,
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or if you read any of my work at withoutborders.fyi,
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you'll know that the most quoted book is Cultural Psychology,
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which is Steve's book. Um, so I'm,
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I'm sitting here with one of my academic and intellectual heroes right now.
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So it's, uh, 12 at night. Uh, it's midnight for me here in Spain,
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but I am very excited to have Steve on the show. So, uh, Steve,
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how are you doing today?
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[Dr. Heine] I'm doing great. Um, pleasure to meet you for Nolan.</v>
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I'm excited to be on your show.
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[Nolan] Thank you. Um, so Steve, just to start it off,</v>
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um, of course I have a little bit more of an academic background with cultural
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psychology, thanks to your book and my professors at UB C. Uh,
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but how would you define culture?
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[Dr. Heine] Um, so there's a lot of different ways that, that people do define culture.</v>
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Um, to me, I like a definition that gets, I think right to the most basic level,
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and I see culture is, uh,
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the information that we share with others that, that we learn from others.
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So, um, we're always, um,
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we are a species that likes to share our experiences. Um, our,
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our brains, the reward centers of our brains light up when, uh,
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we talk about our own experiences, we find this, um, uh, really engaging.
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And because of that,
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because we're always sharing our experiences with each other,
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we're always sharing information with each other,
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and this shared information comes to create a,
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a shared reality that we live in, that, that provides us norms to,
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to guide our behaviors. And, and that's our culture. At least to me, that's the,
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the most basic definition of culture.
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[Nolan] Yeah. So keeping that definition in mind, um,</v>
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I think of some people when they think about culture,
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their mind immediately goes to museums or it goes to language,
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um, which kind of relates more to that definition,
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but how would you react when some people,
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let's say like in Canada,
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they go to Europe and then they come back and then they say,
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there's so much more culture there.
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[Dr. Heine] Right? Yeah. Well, I think what they're referring to there, it's,</v>
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it's still this kind of shared information that we have out there.
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It's just that, um, in Europe, there's, uh,
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a longer history of that shared information than the colonial culture than the
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Europeans brought to Canada, where, where I live. So, um,
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the colonial culture is, is only a few centuries old. Um, I mean,
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I'm at University of British Columbia. It recently celebrated its, uh, 100th,
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uh, anniversary, and it's the first university in, in the province.
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So it's a pretty recent colonial culture.
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Clearly there's been people living here for thousands of years, um, um,
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before that. But, uh, the, the colonial Canadian culture is,
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is the one that kind of has spread across the,
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the country and kind of a somewhat unifying way. And that's so recent.
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Whereas in Europe, you know, you can see all of the artifacts of this,
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this shared information that people have, uh, been exchanging for,
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for centuries. Um, so I have that sensation too, and I go to Europe,
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just things that, wow, you can just see, um, uh, these,
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these are ideas and ways of living that go back centuries
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and, uh, especially in Western Canada. It's just so recent.
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[Nolan] Yeah, definitely. And I understand that feeling too when you're in Europe,</v>
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but I always play the devil's advocate when someone says that,
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and then I bring up, uh,
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the hundreds of indigenous languages that we have in Canada. Yeah.
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And then if you take, um, just the white man out of the equation, [laughter]
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and then you start to realize how much culture and how much shared information
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there really is in, uh, certainly in Canada as well.
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[Dr. Heine] Certainly.</v>
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[Nolan] Uh, um, and just for the listeners right now,</v>
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because of course I have a little bit of the background,
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but just so we're kind of here on the same page, um,
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one thing I think is important to bring up is the hierarchical framework
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that you created with, um, Ara Norenzayan
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Can you kind of summarize it for the listeners, because I think,
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I think it's a very good starting point for people who want to think about
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culture in a more in-depth way.
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[Dr. Heine] Sure. Um, yeah, so,</v>
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so we created this hierarchy for thinking about, uh,
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cultural universality when we can say something is, is, uh,
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universal to people all around the world, or whether it's, it's specific to, uh,
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certain cultures.
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And it's actually not that straightforward to distinguish between what is
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something that's culturally universal and what is something that's, uh,
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that's specific. So, um, uh,
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there are some psychological processes that do look pretty
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uniform around the world to the, um, the best that, that we can tell.
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Um, uh, so these are things, um, such as, uh, that,
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you know,
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familiarity leads to liking that repeated exposures to something, um,
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makes us process that more easily. And that makes us like it more,
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have a positive feeling when, when we en encounter that.
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And that's something that doesn't differ much, uh, between cultures,
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at least from what we can tell. And, um, so that's something that, that we just,
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we call, that's our, um, uh, our highest level of universality.
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We call that an accessibility universal. Um,
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then one step down, there's another level of universality. And, uh,
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that's where that people do things for the same,
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use psychological tools for the same function everywhere, but they use them to,
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uh, differing degrees. Um, uh, so, uh, for example,
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what would be a good example of this? Um, just the, the idea that, um,
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perhaps that, uh, um, people, uh, will, um,
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frown when they're angry. Okay. So, um, that, that when people frown when angry,
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they, they do this to a degree everywhere, but they, um,
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the degree varies somewhat the,
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the way that people express their emotions there,
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there's a certain cultural accent on the way that they express their emotions.
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So, so we would call it that in general, it's quite similar, but it, it's, it,
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it differs, uh, a little bit. And so that's something that we call a, uh,
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a functional universal. And then the, the,
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the next level is when there's a psychological tool that's, uh,
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in principle accessible to everyone around the world,
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but they use it towards different ends. And, uh, an example is perhaps from my,
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my own research, uh, I've studied what motivates people to, to do their best.
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And I, um, looking in, uh, a Japanese and a, uh,
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North American context in, in Canada, in the us and, and we find that, uh,
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North Americans, uh, are motivated to do their best, um,
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when they're getting positive feedback,
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when they're feeling getting positive information about,
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about their performance, the idea that I'm good,
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that motivates North Americans to, to work harder. And, uh, in, in contrast,
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uh, we find the opposite tendency in, in Japan that, uh, Japanese people,
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we find our studies are,
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are motivated to work harder when they find out that they're not good enough,
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when they're getting critical feedback highlighting where there's room to
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improve. And so, this here, um, we're getting a,
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a pretty pronounced cultural difference,
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but it's still using the same underlying basic tools.
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Like we're still motivated to do our best is this being motivated by,
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by dif toward by different means. And, uh,
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we call that an existentially universal. And then the, uh, the last level of,
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uh, universality is, we call it a non universal,
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and that's something that is something that just is simply a,
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a psychological process that is just simply not evident in other cultures. Um,
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and, and this is, um, uh, uh, meaning that it's a cultural invention.
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Certain psychological tools are cultural inventions. And, um,
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a a good example of this is mathematical reasoning, um,
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which I think is an interesting one because math is, you know,
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universal across the universe that, you know, the, the, the, the way that, um,
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uh, you know, that, uh,
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basic physical properties of objects work in constant ways across the universe.
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But our ability to understand math is something that, uh, uh, that is learned.
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And there are some cultures that don't have, um, numeric concepts, um,
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beyond, uh, number two. So they have a number one, they have a number two,
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and then they have something more than number two. Um, and, uh,
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so all that we know about math is stuff that, uh,
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people have invented and shared with others,
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and then that we've ultimately learned in our schools. Um,
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and so that's something that if you haven't been exposed to that you can't do
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math, you, you, the, uh,
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the idea of what is a fraction if you've never been exposed to math,
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is just something that you cannot compute. And so that's the,
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the lowest level universality. We call that a non universal.
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[Nolan] Yeah. So I, I love that example. I remember reading that in the book, but, well,</v>
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[laughter] I've read the book three or four times now. So [laughter] I've got, uh,
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quite a few of the details memorized. Um,
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and then another one just related to that, and I love bringing this up,
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is the Muller-Lyer illusion.
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[Dr. Heine] Oh, yeah. Right.</v>
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[Nolan] Because often people think that these illusions that we learn</v>
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are true. You would think that it's universal.
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But then it turns out not to be the case. Uh, now, before we give the answer,
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just, uh, quickly tell the listeners what the Muller-Lyer illusion is.
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Um, if you type it in on Google, you'll see it's the one with the two lines.
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And then you have, um,
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two arrows either pointing inwards or outwards. And of course,
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those lines are actually the same,
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but the illusion is that they look different.
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And it turns out that people from foraging societies, uh,
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don't see this illusion. Now, before Steve tells us the answer,
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just take a moment to think about it. All right. So Steve,
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why is that,
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why don't they see the illusion and why are we susceptible to it?
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[Dr. Heine] Yeah, that's, um, uh, I think it's a, it's a fascinating example. Yeah. So,</v>
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um, our visual system develops very early in,
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in life that we come in, sort of,
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our visual system is programmed to learn from information that it gets from the
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environment.
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And one of the kinds of information that we get growing up in an industrialized
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environment where we live in worlds that have been carpentered with right
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angles and corners that we see, um, these,
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these edges in these, like if you look into the corner of a room, you,
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you'll actually see that it has edges. And if the, uh,
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if the corner is the furthest part of the scene from you,
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the edges are gonna look something like this.
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I don't know if I can see that like this. Um, on the other hand,
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if the edge is something that's closer to you than the rest of the scene,
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then the, uh, the, the edges on the,
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the angle of the edge is gonna look something like this. And so our brain, uh,
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interprets that information. We learn to, to use it to infer relative distance.
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So, um, when we see this, we see something that, oh, that's something that's,
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um, relatively closer to us than the rest of the, the scene.
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And then when we see this,
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we see something that is further away from us than the rest of the scene. And,
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uh, if something's further away from us,
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but it's taking up the same amount of space, we think, oh,
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it must be larger than it really is, because we know it's further away,
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yet it looks so large. And, uh, you need to be exposed to, uh,
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carpenter corners early in your life to be susceptible to this illusion.
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If you're not, uh, you never learn,
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your visual system doesn't learn that those edges can be used to infer distance.
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[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's fascinating.</v>
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It's something that I bring up often with people just to see if they can figure
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it out on their own [laughter] without the research.
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I have no idea if I would've been able to figure it out just by thinking about
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it. Yeah. Um, but then of course, I always, uh,
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bring that up to segue into WEIRD people. Uh,
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you and I are both weirdos, right? Mm. [laughter] yes. Very weird, uh,
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Western educated, industrialized rich, and democratic.
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If you've listened to the show before, you've definitely heard me bring that up.
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And Steve, you, you and Ira came up with that together? Um.
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[Dr. Heine] Yes. With Ara Norenzayan and with Joe Henrick. Um, okay. Uh,</v>
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who used to be in, in our department, the, the three of us, um,
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wrote a paper where we sort of surveyed all of the cross-cultural evidence that
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we could find, uh,
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for psychological phenomena that have been studied in many different cultures.
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And,
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and what we realize is the vast majority of this work is with one particular
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group, just as you called it, the WEIRD people, western educated,
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industrialized rich, democratic societies. And that is the,
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the vast majority of work in the,
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the behavioral sciences is focused on that topic, uh, focused on that sample.
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And, um, moreover, uh,
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comparing the results of data from that sample compared with other samples,
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we realize that's often an outlier. It's often an unusual way of, uh,
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of thinking, not a, uh, species typical way of thinking. So we've been studying,
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we in the behavioral sciences have been studying, uh,
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a narrow sample that's actually somewhat unusual compared with the rest of the
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world, except we've been building theories that we think apply to the, the,
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the rest of the world,
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because the researchers are largely looking at the same samples.
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And when we compare results from different labs, we see, oh, yeah,
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I found that effect. You found that effect. We, we all found that effect,
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and not realizing that's cuz most of us are, are studying the same Western,
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educated, industrialized rich democratic societies.
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[Nolan] Yeah. And that's not only in the field of psychology, right?</v>
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That's just in academia.
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[Dr. Heine] In in general. Yeah. In, in, in academia more generally, I think especially the,</v>
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the, the social sciences,
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that I think is an interesting phenomenon in itself. Um,
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that why it is that, um, I mean, there,
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there are more psychologists per capita in,
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in the West than there is in,
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in the rest of the world that it UBC where I teach, uh,
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psychology is the biggest major on campus. Um,
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and in many countries around the world, uh,
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psychology isn't even offered as a, as a, as a discipline, as a,
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as a major topic of study. So that, uh, I think that's kind of,
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I think that's the, the beginning of the, the, the WEIRD problem, or at least,
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uh, one contributor to it is that, um, uh,
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people who are fascinated by, uh, by how the mind works. Um,
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and it might also be perhaps due to, um, economic situations. And, and I also,
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I think just due to other aspects of our psychology, but anyways,
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people who are fascinated by this tend to, or they're more common in,
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in the West.
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I think in the West people find that their own internal experiences quite
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captivating and they wanna study it, whereas much of the rest of the world is,
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is concerned with other things. They, they're attending more to, well, what do,
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uh, the groups around me want me to do? Um, they're the,
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they're concerned with social norms, social pressures, and not so much of, well,
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how do I feel about it? Um, and, uh, so anyways, yeah, you have this,
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this curious problem where most psychologists are also from weird countries,
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and they tend to study convenient samples, the people around them.
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And so we end up having this discipline that's just been largely looking at, uh,
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this very narrow sample compared to the rest of the world.
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[Nolan] Now, just so the listeners know just how big this, I would call it a problem,</v>
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right? How big this problem is. Um, what were the numbers again?
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Is it 70% of studies are conducted in WEIRD and then
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96 of them are from university students? Or.
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[Dr. Heine] Um, I think it's, uh, almost 70% from, uh,</v>
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nor from the us actually, it's about 68% of the, um,
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the samples in the,
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the top journals in psychology are from the US and 96% from
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the, uh, from the west, the west more generally. Um,
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and then within that about 70% of, uh, the,
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these Western samples have been university students. So, uh,
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if you crunch all of the numbers,
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this means that the odds of an American undergrad showing up in a psychology
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study are,
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are about 4,000 times greater than the odds of a non-Western person
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in the rest of the world showing up in a psychology study. So it really is a,
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uh, a very distorted view that we have of the world,
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cuz we've largely been looking at, yeah, this, this one group that's,
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that's not all that big, but, uh, has, um, somehow got to,
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uh, define how we understand the psychology of the, the rest of the world.
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[Nolan] Yeah. So you just hinted towards why that, why that could be one financially,</v>
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um, and also just interests, right? What, what the people are concerned with.
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Um, but I think money must be a, a pretty big, uh,
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indicator because reading your book and then also just looking at other
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research, I notice now that there is a lot, lot more, uh,
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psychology research and social science research in China and in Japan
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and, well, I don't know about Korea,
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but I I've definitely read quite a bit in Japan and China,
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and I assume it's because there's more money there is,
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am I correct in saying that or are they just concerned with different things
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now?
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[Dr. Heine] I, I would say that yes, on average wealthier societies, um,</v>
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are more likely to be, uh, studying psychology. Um,
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I, I do think that, yeah,
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psychology has been growing a lot in East Asia recently,
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but historically it,
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it hasn't been such a big topic of study. It's, it's growing, uh, in,
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in its popularity there. Um,
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I think it's been less common there, uh, historically though. Yeah, just,
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just because part of the, uh,
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the self-concept, the, the, the, the way that our mind is,
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is organized to understand the individual's perspective, um,
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is shaped by, uh, cultural practices. And growing up in the West,
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the, the cultural practices are, are very much about how to be an independent,
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self-sufficient entity and, um, how do you take care of yourself,
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um, how do you perceive the world? And, um,
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I think growing up in that mindset,
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you become very sensitive to attending to your inner experiences.
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These inner experiences play, play a big role in, uh,
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your understanding of who you are. Uh, we call this an independent self-concept.
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Um, and in much of the rest of the world, in, in, in non-Western cultures and,
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and East Asia in particular, um, uh, there's, uh,
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a sense of the, the self who the individual is, is, um,
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it's tied up in people's ideas about relationships that they have with others,
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roles that they have in those relationships and groups that they belong to.
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So it's much more of the social aspects, uh,
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of the individual that those get wrapped up in the self.
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And that leads to a perspective not inside,
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but outside to what is everyone else doing? Um, yes,
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what do others expect of me? And, uh,
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having that more external focus here, I think, um,
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is quite different from, uh, um,
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the kinds of concerns that psychologists study. That's, um, and I think,
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so our psychology,
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I think has largely been built on these ideas that have grown outta the west,
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where people have, uh,
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for some time here have had this more of this individualistic independent
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self-concept that, uh,
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directs their attention inwards and makes them interested in these questions
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about, um, psychology and why do I feel that way? Um,
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and I think those are just considered less often in many other parts of the
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world.
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[Nolan] Definitely. And, well, I think about it a lot,</v>
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the individualistic and collectivistic, um, duality.
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And now that I live in Spain, um, I'll, you think Spain,
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it is a western country,
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but the longer I live here and the more I get to know the culture and the more I
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apply what I know from cultural psychology,
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I realize how collectivistic it actually is here. Yeah. And [laughter]
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I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I remember in your book,
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um, you mentioned one of the reasons that societies might become more
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collectivistic or individualistic depends on whether they had, uh,
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rice or wheat. Because rice, um,
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to cultivate rice, you need to work as a team. Um, and wheat,
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you can often do it by yourself, right? or at a small unit.
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And then I thought here in Spain,
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maybe this has something to do with paella rice, [laughter] I dunno though. Um,
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I think it might have more to do with the, the Catholic history and yeah.
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things like that. But.
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[Dr. Heine] Yeah, yeah, no, that's, um,</v>
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I think there's many different parts of our environment, but that,
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that shape the cultural norms that emerge. And you, uh, just alluded to a,
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a big one is just, uh, the, the key crops that, that we grow,
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that, um, that for much of history,
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most people were involved in food production. It's, um,
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only relatively recently that, um, we have,
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have developed really since the Industrial Revolution that, um,
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a larger proportion of people have been able to, to lead basic food production.
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And yeah, uh, wheat farming is something that is largely done by,
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by a single family that, um, they, uh, they wait for the rains.
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Um, I mean irrigation, um, uh, is, is used to a degree,
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but historically it wasn't used nearly to the degree that it is now.
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So people just waited for the, the rains to fall, and then at the uh, uh,
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end of the season, they, they, they, they harvested their crops.
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Whereas growing rice, it's, uh, it's,
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it's quite different that rice is grown in patties in, in standing water.
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And one that means, uh, you need to have a,
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a shared irrigation system cuz um, where when you,
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when you flood your patties has to be the same time that your neighbors flood
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their patties. Um, and so this, uh,
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involves a lot of coordination with others and actually a hierarchical power
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where you, you look up to the governing authorities for who are, um,
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involved in, in deciding when this is happening. And then too,
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that that rice cultivation is far more labor intensive.
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So there's a lot of labor sharing between families. Um, so that, uh,
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that you can't harvest all the race at the same time because you need support of
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others, your, your neighbors really to, to, to harvest rice at those times.
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So then, um, it's, uh, families,
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neighboring families coordinate such that they plant their rice at slightly
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different times so that it's harvested at slightly different times.
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And all of this involves a lot of coordination with your neighbors.
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You have to learn to get along with neighbors and,
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and learn to do things in sync with neighbors to coordinate with them. And,
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um, and so yeah, this has been argued to be a, a key reason why this more,
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these more collectivistic traditions emerge.
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Cuz you can see them one between countries, but also even within countries.
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A lot of this research has been done within China.
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Cuz in China there's rice growing regions and there's wheat growing regions and
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the rice growing regions,
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you see more evidence of this collectivistic way of thinking, um,
401
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than in the wheat growing regions. Um, and so yeah, that's, uh,
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that's one key source of influence is, um,
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is the, the crops that that, that people raise. So Yeah.
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[Nolan] Yeah. And, and bringing up the crops and, um, the plow and everything,</v>
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it even influences egalitarian views as well, right?
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[Dr. Heine] Yeah. Yeah. So that's, um, uh, that's been, so some interesting, uh, uh,</v>
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research that's been, uh, done by some economists, um, such as Nathan Nun.
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Um, and what, uh, they were looking at was just this,
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this idea of, uh, why are, uh,
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why do countries differ in terms of their norms towards gender equality?
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And they're really quite vast differences in,
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in countries between whether men and women are, are seen as equal,
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having same rights and opportunities, or whether they're seen as quite distinct.
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And there's, there's the female world and there's a,
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there's a male world and different, uh, rights and opportunities. And, um, so,
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uh, one key argument, um, has been made,
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and a lot of data's shown to back it up, is that places,
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once uh,
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farmers adopted a plow that this actually had big changes
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in society before there was a plow.
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People used to do agriculture largely with a stick, like a hoe,
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and you would sort of dig a hole and, and put, put seeds in there. And,
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and farming then was practiced by both men and women in the community. Um,
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and it was something, uh, both men and women were, were involved. And then, uh,
425
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the, the plow was an invention and it was, uh,
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it was really good for agriculture cuz it, um,
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you could plant seeds far more effectively with a,
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with a plow you can tear up the ground and then, uh, it's,
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it's much more efficient than digging individual holes.
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But the problem with the plow is, uh, one, it's kind of dangerous cuz it's, you,
431
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you need to do, uh, tie the plow to some, to some livestock like oxen,
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um, to pull. And so it's kind of dangerous.
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So you don't want little kids around. And, um, uh, around the world, um,
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mothers do more, uh, childcare of young infants than, uh, um, than,
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than than do men. And so you can't have kids around when you got a plow.
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And also the plow, using the plow involves a lot of upper body strength too, um,
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um, around the world, men have more upper,
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upper body strength. So you end up, once the plow comes in,
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all of a sudden farming becomes the man's job.
440
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And all of a sudden you have this big, uh,
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sort of sexual division of labor here that, uh, well, the,
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the men are involved in, in the basis of food production, the, the,
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which is the, the basis of the economy. And, um,
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so what you can see is how long a,
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a region has been using the plow predicts how unequal are the gender norms
446
00:27:01.190 --> 00:27:05.150
today. And so places where the plow came later in Scandinavia,
447
00:27:05.150 --> 00:27:09.990
the plow came a lot later. Um, they had, um, so they had less time.
448
00:27:09.990 --> 00:27:13.070
They've had it for centuries, mind you, but it's been less time, uh,
449
00:27:13.070 --> 00:27:15.190
than it has been in much of the rest of the world.
450
00:27:15.190 --> 00:27:19.070
And so there's been less time for this gender division of labor to, um,
451
00:27:19.280 --> 00:27:21.790
to emerge. So, um, yeah,
452
00:27:21.790 --> 00:27:25.710
I find it really quite fascinating with culture that going back in our history,
453
00:27:25.710 --> 00:27:28.990
some early changes that might seem kind of small or,
454
00:27:28.990 --> 00:27:33.230
or kind of unrelated can later on have, uh, persistent, uh,
455
00:27:33.230 --> 00:27:36.750
effects that, that shape the whole trajectory that a culture is on.
456
00:27:37.180 --> 00:27:41.510
[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. Um, now just the,</v>
457
00:27:41.510 --> 00:27:46.070
to bring it back to the, the east and or in the weird countries,
458
00:27:46.610 --> 00:27:50.710
one thing that keeps coming up on this show, especially, uh,
459
00:27:50.710 --> 00:27:54.990
people who have lived in North America and have gone to schools in North
460
00:27:54.990 --> 00:27:58.510
America, um, mostly I'm talking about Canada, um,
461
00:27:58.540 --> 00:28:03.470
versus people who have gone to schools in Europe and in Asia
462
00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:06.870
now, both people on the show, people from Asia, people from Europe,
463
00:28:06.870 --> 00:28:10.470
when they go to a Canadian school, we're talking about high school here,
464
00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:15.950
they always mention how the teachers will never say anything bad about
465
00:28:15.950 --> 00:28:16.430
them.
466
00:28:16.430 --> 00:28:16.970
[Dr. Heine] [laughter] .</v>
467
00:28:16.970 --> 00:28:21.790
[Nolan] And how much of a focus there is on self-esteem. And, um,</v>
468
00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:27.790
I was a little bit hyperbolic when I said this, but I said, um, [laughter]
469
00:28:27.790 --> 00:28:31.470
if you travel around the world, no one gives a shit about your self-esteem.
470
00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:33.310
It's such a North American idea.
471
00:28:33.690 --> 00:28:37.710
But of course that's a little bit hyperbolic and self, and,
472
00:28:37.710 --> 00:28:42.270
and I go on to say self-esteem doesn't even exist in some other languages,
473
00:28:42.770 --> 00:28:47.000
but of course it does in a way, right?
474
00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:51.880
Because it's just how we understand and how we define self-esteem.
475
00:28:51.880 --> 00:28:52.680
Mm-hmm.
476
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:57.120
so since that's come up on the show quite a bit where peoples say that, oh,
477
00:28:57.120 --> 00:29:00.800
in North America teachers aren't willing to say anything bad because everyone's
478
00:29:00.800 --> 00:29:03.280
worried about the self-esteem. Um,
479
00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:06.560
and then in the rest of the world they don't care about self-esteem.
480
00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:09.920
But that's not really true. So can can you expand on that a little bit,
481
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.680
like the three faces of self-esteem and because I know this is, you're an,
482
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:15.280
uh, it's one of your expertise, right?
483
00:29:15.750 --> 00:29:18.200
[Dr. Heine] I've done, yeah, I've done quite a bit of, uh, uh,</v>
484
00:29:18.400 --> 00:29:21.760
research on this and it's really the, the, the topic that I've started today.
485
00:29:21.760 --> 00:29:26.520
It was the first topic I, I looked at in my career. And, um, I,
486
00:29:26.520 --> 00:29:31.240
I got interest in this because right after I received my undergrad, um, I,
487
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:34.320
I went to teach English for a couple years in a tiny town in,
488
00:29:34.320 --> 00:29:39.280
in rural Japan town called Obama of all things. And, um,
489
00:29:39.790 --> 00:29:41.040
I was, I just had my,
490
00:29:41.200 --> 00:29:44.920
I came fresh from university with my psychology degree and I thought I
491
00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.200
understood, you know, done a lot of things in school about, you know,
492
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:51.720
how people, um, people work and what motivates them.
493
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.520
And I tried to apply that being a teacher.
494
00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:58.280
And so one of the things that I would do is whenever I was teaching my Japanese
495
00:29:58.280 --> 00:30:01.800
students English, uh, when they, whenever they would try something, I would say,
496
00:30:01.800 --> 00:30:04.480
you know, good job. And, um,
497
00:30:04.830 --> 00:30:07.720
I would always be co-teaching with a Japanese teacher. And,
498
00:30:07.740 --> 00:30:11.080
and this one teacher particularly, he would often bring me and he would,
499
00:30:11.080 --> 00:30:14.080
he would, he was bothered by me doing this. He goes, why did you tell that kid?
500
00:30:14.080 --> 00:30:18.720
He did a good job. He did a bad job, [laughter] . And, um, and, and he goes,
501
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.640
don't you want them to, uh, to learn their English?
502
00:30:22.660 --> 00:30:25.640
And I found this really confusing, cuz of course that's what,
503
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:28.920
that's what I'm trying to do too. And we just had very different strategies.
504
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.320
He thought the way to do it was tell people, you know, you've done a bad job.
505
00:30:33.220 --> 00:30:36.080
And, um, and that would motivate them. And I, I thought the opposite.
506
00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:40.880
And this ultimately as so led to this research program,
507
00:30:41.210 --> 00:30:44.760
um, that I have on, uh, yeah. What, what, uh,
508
00:30:45.950 --> 00:30:48.720
what are the different ways that people view posi, uh,
509
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:53.000
view themselves positively, uh, around the world and, uh, yeah,
510
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:57.920
I think in the West, um, uh, there is this idea of, uh, of self-esteem that,
511
00:30:57.970 --> 00:31:00.080
uh, to view oneself positively.
512
00:31:00.080 --> 00:31:04.160
It's taking the individual's own perspective that, that, that really matters.
513
00:31:04.530 --> 00:31:09.400
So having self-esteem is when you, when the individual says, I think I am good,
514
00:31:09.560 --> 00:31:12.560
right? Or I believe I'm good. And it's really from the, the,
515
00:31:12.580 --> 00:31:14.720
the individual's perspective. And,
516
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:17.720
and there's been a lot of research showing that having the sense of self-esteem
517
00:31:17.720 --> 00:31:20.600
does predict a lot of positive outcomes in, in the West.
518
00:31:20.600 --> 00:31:25.320
That people who have higher self-esteem on average do achieve more in school.
519
00:31:25.730 --> 00:31:28.880
Um, they, they, they tend to fare better in,
520
00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:32.800
in a number of ways that this confidence is key. But it's, um.
521
00:31:32.800 --> 00:31:35.400
[Nolan] An important note to highlight there is that you said in the West.</v>
522
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:39.120
[Dr. Heine] Right? Yes, yes. And, uh, so this is something that's been,</v>
523
00:31:39.120 --> 00:31:43.800
I think especially cultivated in cultures where more of this independent
524
00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:47.560
view of self, where the idea is you are supposed to be self-sufficient,
525
00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:52.200
you are supposed to be the director of, of, of your own life, um,
526
00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:56.480
and self-esteem. I, I mean in, in the West too. It's,
527
00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:58.760
it's actually a fairly recent topic of study.
528
00:31:58.760 --> 00:32:03.520
It's really caught on in the 1960s, uh, is when people started, uh,
529
00:32:03.520 --> 00:32:08.120
to study it. And if you look back at that early research from the 1960s to now,
530
00:32:08.610 --> 00:32:12.760
uh, you realize that as, as some people like Gene Twenge, uh, um,
531
00:32:12.830 --> 00:32:16.840
a social psychologist has identified as that self-esteem has been going up in
532
00:32:16.840 --> 00:32:21.160
the west. Um, and, uh, it's gone up quite a bit, uh, um,
533
00:32:21.470 --> 00:32:25.640
almost 20% since the 1960s as people's self-esteem.
534
00:32:25.640 --> 00:32:29.720
It's gotten so high now that the most common answer on a self-esteem, uh,
535
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:34.240
scale is the highest possible scale. That's the most common answer among, uh,
536
00:32:34.480 --> 00:32:35.280
American participants. They,
537
00:32:35.280 --> 00:32:38.240
they couldn't answer the questions any more positively than,
538
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:42.160
than they already do. And, uh, so there's been this growing movement,
539
00:32:42.160 --> 00:32:45.440
people are viewing themselves in the west more and more positively.
540
00:32:45.700 --> 00:32:49.440
And I think part of the reason for that is the culture around them has also been
541
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:54.440
changing, such that it's encouraging people to have more positive views of
542
00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:59.160
themselves. One way we can see that is, um, with how grading has changed,
543
00:32:59.730 --> 00:33:03.720
um, that, uh, there's a nice analysis of this, um,
544
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:07.720
some psychologists who are looking at what were the most common grades back in
545
00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:11.680
the 1940s in the US. And, and the most common grade, uh,
546
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.520
then was a C uh, a C was the most common grade,
547
00:33:14.520 --> 00:33:18.840
and an A was reserved for the, the rare student who, um,
548
00:33:18.840 --> 00:33:21.440
really stood out. So only about, I think it's like, well,
549
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:24.600
15% of the students would get an A in the, in the 1940s,
550
00:33:24.600 --> 00:33:28.840
most people would get a get a C. And that has changed. Um,
551
00:33:28.840 --> 00:33:31.120
so that it's, um, it's something like,
552
00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:34.760
now an A is the most common grade at American universities, uh,
553
00:33:34.760 --> 00:33:38.760
something like 40 something percent, uh, students are, are, are getting an A in,
554
00:33:38.760 --> 00:33:43.640
in, in classes. And, and this changes because, um,
555
00:33:43.700 --> 00:33:47.240
the universities have, or individual instructors, well, really,
556
00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:51.520
I think the whole culture has, has changed such that, um, that the desired,
557
00:33:52.250 --> 00:33:52.660
um,
558
00:33:52.660 --> 00:33:56.480
the desired way of evaluating students is to come up with an evaluation where
559
00:33:56.480 --> 00:34:00.680
people tend, are doing positively so that teachers, instructors here,
560
00:34:01.090 --> 00:34:02.800
they're making the exams and,
561
00:34:02.800 --> 00:34:06.560
and you can make an easy exam or you can make a hard exam. And, uh,
562
00:34:06.560 --> 00:34:11.120
the exams really have gotten easier over time, such that they,
563
00:34:11.500 --> 00:34:16.320
the idea is that they want most people to come out with an A outta
564
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:19.160
the course and to, and, and to think they're doing well. Whereas before,
565
00:34:19.390 --> 00:34:22.920
I think it was more that, uh, it was more kind of like, um,
566
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:26.600
the Japanese instructors that I was telling you about, who the idea that no,
567
00:34:26.600 --> 00:34:29.840
you, you, you want to provide some critical feedback to people so they,
568
00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.000
that they know where they're, they're lacking. They, they know where to,
569
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:36.880
to focus their, their effort. So there's been this change, uh, over time. And,
570
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.880
and so you see they're kind of going in parallel that, uh,
571
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:45.680
average grades have been going up and average self-esteem has also been going
572
00:34:45.680 --> 00:34:47.120
up, uh, outside and
573
00:34:47.120 --> 00:34:50.120
[Nolan] Now, you, you personally, do you, do you think this is a good trend?</v>
574
00:34:50.170 --> 00:34:53.160
Do you think this is a positive trend? Or do you think it has some negative,
575
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:53.920
negative effects?
576
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:58.320
[Dr. Heine] Yeah, uh, I am, um, I tend to view, uh, self-esteem,</v>
577
00:34:59.450 --> 00:35:02.680
um, more as a, as well,
578
00:35:04.270 --> 00:35:08.760
I, I'm kind of agnostic if it's good or if it's bad in the sense that, um,
579
00:35:08.990 --> 00:35:10.040
I think, uh,
580
00:35:10.040 --> 00:35:14.120
people end up getting us a self view that fits with their culture.
581
00:35:14.130 --> 00:35:16.360
So if the culture is changing in this way,
582
00:35:16.470 --> 00:35:19.840
that the idea is that we're supposed to be focusing on what's good about
583
00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:24.800
ourselves, then it is more functional to have high self-esteem in that culture.
584
00:35:25.610 --> 00:35:30.120
If the culture though is, uh, changing or, or if it has, uh,
585
00:35:30.140 --> 00:35:35.080
for some time been a culture which emphasizes the interdependence of
586
00:35:35.080 --> 00:35:36.240
the individual
587
00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:41.000
and so that a person is supposed to fit in with others and is supposed to
588
00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:45.160
take on the roles required by others, um, then, um,
589
00:35:45.190 --> 00:35:48.680
I don't think self-esteem is, is so functional there and there, in fact,
590
00:35:48.680 --> 00:35:53.160
it can be more adaptive to be focusing on, uh, where you might be, um,
591
00:35:53.690 --> 00:35:56.880
uh, have some shortcomings where you might be, uh,
592
00:35:56.990 --> 00:36:01.400
likely to jeopardize getting a positive view from others. And so, yeah,
593
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:03.200
I guess what I haven't said is, I think, yeah,
594
00:36:03.200 --> 00:36:06.320
self-esteem is a way of viewing the itself positively that matters in the West.
595
00:36:06.380 --> 00:36:11.040
And I think, uh, at least in East Asia, the corresponding view, I would,
596
00:36:11.230 --> 00:36:13.680
I would use a term face for, uh.
597
00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:14.440
[Nolan] Saving a face.</v>
598
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:18.000
[Dr. Heine] Saving face. Yes, exactly. And, and face is something that's,</v>
599
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:21.800
it's it that shares some commonalities of self-esteem. And,
600
00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:24.080
and some key differences too. So like self-esteem,
601
00:36:24.080 --> 00:36:27.320
it's about having a positive view of yourself, but the key,
602
00:36:27.320 --> 00:36:31.040
some key differences are face is based on what others think of you.
603
00:36:31.410 --> 00:36:35.480
So that's your face is ultimately in the hands of others. Um,
604
00:36:35.660 --> 00:36:40.560
and that really changes things from a psychological level because,
605
00:36:40.770 --> 00:36:44.160
uh, when the concern is about building your own self-esteem,
606
00:36:44.160 --> 00:36:48.600
what matters is your own perspective that if I think I'm doing well,
607
00:36:48.750 --> 00:36:50.480
then I'll have high self-esteem.
608
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:54.600
And it's kind of up to me to interpret things in a way where I end up looking
609
00:36:54.600 --> 00:36:56.960
good, and that's a way of building, um, self-esteem.
610
00:36:57.260 --> 00:37:01.520
But when it's faith and it's, I need others to view me positively,
611
00:37:01.750 --> 00:37:04.720
well that changes the dynamics a lot cuz now it's like,
612
00:37:04.720 --> 00:37:09.200
how can I present myself in a way that I think others will, will, like?
613
00:37:09.200 --> 00:37:12.760
And one key way of doing that is making sure that you don't have any
614
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:16.880
shortcomings that is gonna cause others to think negatively of you and might
615
00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:19.840
cause you to lose face, which is, um,
616
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.920
very problematic in East Asian society.
617
00:37:22.430 --> 00:37:26.160
[Nolan] Yeah. And I think there are pros and cons with that. So I,</v>
618
00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:30.440
I work as a teacher as well, and I've taught hundreds of students, uh,
619
00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:31.640
from China especially,
620
00:37:31.640 --> 00:37:36.640
I've taught students from around South America in Canada and [laughter]
621
00:37:37.070 --> 00:37:38.880
I'll just be honest, on average,
622
00:37:39.210 --> 00:37:44.160
it is a pleasure to teach Asian students compared to Western
623
00:37:44.160 --> 00:37:47.800
students. They, they work harder. Um,
624
00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:49.960
when you do give them critical feedback,
625
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:53.120
they take it and they don't whine about it.
626
00:37:53.120 --> 00:37:55.560
And then if you give them positive reinforcement,
627
00:37:55.560 --> 00:37:58.240
they love it because it's,
628
00:37:58.240 --> 00:38:01.640
it's something that they don't get all the time, right?
629
00:38:01.640 --> 00:38:05.320
So when you do give them something positive, it really means something to them.
630
00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:09.680
And I find nowadays in North America, you tell, uh,
631
00:38:09.680 --> 00:38:12.960
students something good and well, of course they,
632
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:14.920
they hear nothing but good things about themselves,
633
00:38:15.090 --> 00:38:19.920
so it kind of just gets washed away. But then on the flip side,
634
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:21.920
how you just described saving face,
635
00:38:22.410 --> 00:38:26.200
it is so much easier to get a Western child, um,
636
00:38:26.200 --> 00:38:30.200
or and a North American child to express their opinion about something.
637
00:38:30.210 --> 00:38:33.640
If I say create a context sentence or explain your opinion here,
638
00:38:33.640 --> 00:38:35.600
and they'll just, they'll just just go off.
639
00:38:35.930 --> 00:38:39.400
Whereas many Asian children that I teach, um,
640
00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:43.120
you really gotta force it out of them to get the opinions out.
641
00:38:43.160 --> 00:38:47.560
[Dr. Heine] Yeah. And I, uh, I think that difference, um,</v>
642
00:38:47.630 --> 00:38:50.560
also stems just even from some ideas of, uh,
643
00:38:50.680 --> 00:38:54.680
different ideas of what is knowledge, what is the, uh,
644
00:38:54.680 --> 00:38:59.480
what are the goals of, of, of, uh, education? And I think, um,
645
00:38:59.480 --> 00:39:03.880
sort of coming from a more of a Confucian perspective, the, the idea is that,
646
00:39:04.130 --> 00:39:09.080
um, knowledge is something that experts have. And so you're learning from the,
647
00:39:09.080 --> 00:39:12.720
the experts and so you should listen to what they, they say and,
648
00:39:12.720 --> 00:39:17.400
and try to try to learn what, what they're telling you. And I think, uh,
649
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:21.680
a lot of ideas about Western knowledge perhaps stem back from some classical
650
00:39:21.680 --> 00:39:25.080
Greek ideas of some ideas. Socrates.
651
00:39:25.080 --> 00:39:29.280
And knowledge is something inside of you that, that you have to come and, and,
652
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:34.080
and to, um, you, you understand things by, um, uh,
653
00:39:34.080 --> 00:39:36.560
by questioning others until they, uh,
654
00:39:36.560 --> 00:39:38.520
are able to figure things out for themselves.
655
00:39:38.520 --> 00:39:40.600
And there's this much more of this emphasis on,
656
00:39:40.600 --> 00:39:45.040
on the individual learning things and that the individual can create some of
657
00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:48.920
these kinds of knowledge. And so I think that's, uh, that itself is,
658
00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:52.800
is another key difference, uh, between societies is yeah, you know,
659
00:39:52.950 --> 00:39:57.560
what is the purpose of education? Is it to teach you to how to, um,
660
00:39:57.560 --> 00:39:59.040
understand things for yourself?
661
00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:03.600
Or is it to how to understand things the way that you're, you, the, the experts.
662
00:40:03.730 --> 00:40:04.840
Um, um,
663
00:40:04.840 --> 00:40:08.840
that that knowledge is something that resides within experts versus knowledge is
664
00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:10.400
something that resides within all of us.
665
00:40:11.150 --> 00:40:14.600
[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. Now, just tying into this,</v>
666
00:40:14.600 --> 00:40:18.360
when we're thinking about education and we're thinking about what are the best
667
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:21.760
ways to do this and what, what, what's going to be best for humanity?
668
00:40:22.310 --> 00:40:26.440
I often think about morality when it comes to culture, right? Mm-hmm.
669
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:31.480
um, can we morally accuse a cultural tradition?
670
00:40:31.870 --> 00:40:35.200
Yeah. Um, is it possible? And of course, uh,
671
00:40:35.600 --> 00:40:37.680
[laughter] the beginning of your book, you have,
672
00:40:37.900 --> 00:40:42.800
and a wonderful example I love to bring up, and that's with the, the za,
673
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:43.880
the, the Zambia.
674
00:40:44.240 --> 00:40:45.073
[Dr. Heine] Zambian Zambian.</v>
675
00:40:45.220 --> 00:40:46.320
[Nolan] The Zambian people.</v>
676
00:40:46.680 --> 00:40:47.513
[Dr. Heine] Zambian.</v>
677
00:40:47.580 --> 00:40:52.040
[Nolan] The Zam Sambian people, right? With with an S Yes. Yeah.</v>
678
00:40:52.040 --> 00:40:56.520
With an s where the boys are forced, well,
679
00:40:56.520 --> 00:40:57.520
not forced I guess,
680
00:40:57.650 --> 00:41:02.480
or just it's part of the culture there to perform fellatio in order
681
00:41:02.610 --> 00:41:06.680
to obtain masculinity, right? And, um,
682
00:41:06.680 --> 00:41:11.000
you kind of bring this up just to talk about how we think about, um,
683
00:41:11.370 --> 00:41:15.760
uh, sexual orientation, right? Because they go from, from, um,
684
00:41:16.110 --> 00:41:20.840
a gay sexual orientation to eventually being allowed to be,
685
00:41:21.050 --> 00:41:25.520
to be straight and to have a wife. And, um,
686
00:41:25.890 --> 00:41:29.680
to me, I, I love the idea of how, um,
687
00:41:29.720 --> 00:41:34.640
sexuality can be fluid and how it's not just straight or gay.
688
00:41:34.760 --> 00:41:38.560
Right? And I think that's an interesting side of it, but on the other side,
689
00:41:39.380 --> 00:41:41.540
maybe it's my western influence,
690
00:41:41.540 --> 00:41:46.540
but I stand by saying that it is wrong for a
691
00:41:46.540 --> 00:41:47.660
culture to do that. Right?
692
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:52.220
And how can I accuse that culture is
693
00:41:52.270 --> 00:41:56.140
Am is there a way that we can universally,
694
00:41:56.440 --> 00:41:59.340
universally agree that that is wrong?
695
00:42:00.010 --> 00:42:02.580
[Dr. Heine] Yeah. Well, that's, uh, you,</v>
696
00:42:02.580 --> 00:42:06.740
you get right to a very thorny issue underlying this. So yeah, you,
697
00:42:06.740 --> 00:42:11.580
you're referring the, the Sambian there, um, uh, a tribal society in, um, the,
698
00:42:11.580 --> 00:42:15.540
the high heels of New Guinea and, um, and this,
699
00:42:15.540 --> 00:42:19.540
this practice seems to be centuries old. It's shared by many other, um,
700
00:42:19.540 --> 00:42:23.700
small scale societies in, uh, in New Guinea. And it's, yeah. And it's,
701
00:42:23.700 --> 00:42:28.100
and it's something, yeah, it's just shocking by, uh, western modern norms that,
702
00:42:28.100 --> 00:42:32.660
um, this is something that young boys are, are, are, are, are doing.
703
00:42:33.350 --> 00:42:38.260
Um, and I think to, to me, uh, what,
704
00:42:38.260 --> 00:42:42.180
what I try to do and what I, something I emphasize my class,
705
00:42:42.380 --> 00:42:45.700
whenever we do talk about morality, uh, across cultures is a,
706
00:42:45.700 --> 00:42:49.580
is a tricky with moralities because we are socialized within a, a,
707
00:42:49.580 --> 00:42:54.540
a set of moral values to think of this is right. And, and, and this is wrong.
708
00:42:54.540 --> 00:42:58.740
So it's very difficult to conceive that other cultures could do things
709
00:42:58.740 --> 00:43:02.300
differently, because if it's differently from what we think of as Right,
710
00:43:02.990 --> 00:43:06.420
we reflexively assume that that, that it's, that it's wrong.
711
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:09.740
[Nolan] But even things in our culture, like, um, just to bring,</v>
712
00:43:09.740 --> 00:43:13.100
bring an example from North America, I think, uh,
713
00:43:13.100 --> 00:43:17.740
child beauty pageants are morally wrong, right? Yeah. So even though I'm,
714
00:43:17.740 --> 00:43:18.780
I'm raised in that culture,
715
00:43:18.890 --> 00:43:23.460
I can still understand that there are things that are morally wrong with that.
716
00:43:23.760 --> 00:43:28.500
[Dr. Heine] Yep. Yep. And, um, and I, I mean there's lots of,</v>
717
00:43:28.710 --> 00:43:32.260
uh, other cultural practices and practices here within Canada that,
718
00:43:32.260 --> 00:43:35.540
that I also agree are, are, are wrong. And I don't think it's,
719
00:43:35.690 --> 00:43:40.300
it's problematic to, to have views of other cultures like this.
720
00:43:40.300 --> 00:43:44.740
I think that's just, just natural because, um, we,
721
00:43:44.740 --> 00:43:47.580
we do learn, uh, a a set of, uh,
722
00:43:47.580 --> 00:43:51.820
moral values and that guides our life and, and we judge people on whether they,
723
00:43:51.820 --> 00:43:52.620
they stick to it. And,
724
00:43:52.620 --> 00:43:56.580
and you do find sometimes that cultures can have practices that, uh,
725
00:43:56.580 --> 00:44:00.340
go strongly against that. I think to understand the culture, to,
726
00:44:00.340 --> 00:44:04.980
to understand that practice, it's, it's useful to try to, uh,
727
00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:09.420
set aside the, the judgmental side and, and to, to look at it in a way of, well,
728
00:44:09.420 --> 00:44:13.980
how is this this practice functional in that society? Why did it emerge? Um,
729
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:18.740
and um, and I think that's useful for coming to under understand why,
730
00:44:18.740 --> 00:44:22.540
why people do things. Um, and I, I would argue, I don't,
731
00:44:22.540 --> 00:44:24.220
I don't think overall that it,
732
00:44:24.220 --> 00:44:27.740
it's reasonable to say that some cultures are more moral on average than others.
733
00:44:27.740 --> 00:44:31.800
I I think they, they're adopting, you know, sets of practices that, that,
734
00:44:31.800 --> 00:44:36.680
that fit with, with what the cultural norms around them, uh, require. Uh,
735
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:37.760
but yeah, the,
736
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:42.240
it's a remarkable diversity of around the world of the kinds of things that,
737
00:44:42.240 --> 00:44:45.920
that, that people do. And, um, and many of the things that,
738
00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:49.360
that people do are far outside of, uh,
739
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:53.800
what the norms are within Canada of, uh, what, what is appropriate behavior.
740
00:44:54.830 --> 00:44:56.600
[Nolan] Well, I, one thing you say right there,</v>
741
00:44:56.600 --> 00:45:00.160
what I think is really interesting is the fact, is it functional, right?
742
00:45:00.890 --> 00:45:05.850
Would it be fair to say that one good way to think about morality
743
00:45:05.850 --> 00:45:10.730
in a universal way is if that practice is no longer functional
744
00:45:11.390 --> 00:45:14.530
and no longer progressing the culture,
745
00:45:15.560 --> 00:45:19.140
can we say that it's wrong in in those terms then?
746
00:45:20.130 --> 00:45:23.020
[Dr. Heine] Yeah, that's, that's interesting. I think at heart,</v>
747
00:45:23.020 --> 00:45:26.020
this is a very thorny debate because, uh,
748
00:45:26.340 --> 00:45:28.340
functional for for whom,
749
00:45:28.340 --> 00:45:33.260
and I agree that there's lots of things that traditions that continue, um,
750
00:45:33.260 --> 00:45:37.100
and uh, often would be seen as problematic. Now, some of the,
751
00:45:37.100 --> 00:45:41.140
the traditions that continue that, that maybe used to make sense in the past,
752
00:45:41.630 --> 00:45:43.740
um, I think, uh, a for example,
753
00:45:43.740 --> 00:45:48.580
a gender division of labor used to make sense in the past when society was,
754
00:45:49.200 --> 00:45:53.260
was structured around that. And, um, and society,
755
00:45:53.480 --> 00:45:54.820
the norms have changed.
756
00:45:54.820 --> 00:45:58.580
And I don't think that same gender division of labor makes sense anymore,
757
00:45:58.890 --> 00:46:01.980
even though yes, people with more traditional views will think, well,
758
00:46:01.980 --> 00:46:06.540
this is the way it's always been and it should continue to be that way. Um,
759
00:46:06.920 --> 00:46:11.100
and, and so yeah, you always are gonna have within any society that,
760
00:46:11.100 --> 00:46:14.860
that some people are gonna be embracing traditions more and some people are
761
00:46:14.860 --> 00:46:19.260
gonna be looking forward more to, to, you know, the new world that, that,
762
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:22.020
that we're living in. And, and people differ in,
763
00:46:22.070 --> 00:46:26.740
in that regard. And I think there's, could be value both in trying to, you know,
764
00:46:26.890 --> 00:46:30.060
respecting traditions and in, in looking to come up with,
765
00:46:30.060 --> 00:46:31.900
with new norms for the,
766
00:46:32.260 --> 00:46:35.180
the new changing cultures because the cultures are always changing.
767
00:46:35.410 --> 00:46:38.340
They are always fluid. We have, you know,
768
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:41.980
new inventions coming by that we now live in a world with,
769
00:46:41.980 --> 00:46:44.420
with smartphones as of this year.
770
00:46:44.420 --> 00:46:47.580
Seems like we live in a world with artificial intelligence too. And, um,
771
00:46:47.640 --> 00:46:52.060
and that's gonna change the kinds of norms that we develop in a society of what
772
00:46:52.060 --> 00:46:56.540
is the effective way to, to live our traditions, uh, you know,
773
00:46:56.540 --> 00:46:58.020
are what got us here.
774
00:46:58.020 --> 00:47:01.940
And some of those traditions maybe are gonna provi provide a good foundation for
775
00:47:01.940 --> 00:47:05.780
us going forward. And other of our traditions, uh, are ones that we,
776
00:47:05.890 --> 00:47:08.180
that are now causing harm. But I think it's,
777
00:47:08.510 --> 00:47:13.380
there's always gonna be a lot of debate within a society of, of, you know, what,
778
00:47:13.620 --> 00:47:18.260
what is more harmful? Uh, and what is more value? And I think, um, yes, this,
779
00:47:18.690 --> 00:47:19.740
this is always, I think,
780
00:47:19.740 --> 00:47:24.540
gonna be a perennial topic of debate between those endorsing more traditional
781
00:47:24.540 --> 00:47:27.060
views in society and those endorsing more progressive views.
782
00:47:27.120 --> 00:47:32.040
And I think every society has that division of opinions, um,
783
00:47:32.040 --> 00:47:35.280
and is definitely, and it's contested and it, and, and it's, and it's,
784
00:47:35.300 --> 00:47:39.840
but I think it's hard to take an objective point of view and say, well,
785
00:47:40.300 --> 00:47:42.960
who is right and who is wrong? I think that's hard too,
786
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.890
because we're all caught up in our own cultural networks of ideas here that none
787
00:47:48.170 --> 00:47:52.770
of us course is, has that objective, uh, perspective. And so, yeah, I think,
788
00:47:52.860 --> 00:47:56.090
uh, morality is often confounded with these,
789
00:47:56.090 --> 00:48:01.010
these subjective perspectives based on the, uh, the, the various cultural,
790
00:48:01.660 --> 00:48:04.970
um, well subcultures that, that, that we all live in.
791
00:48:04.970 --> 00:48:09.170
Cuz we all do live in different collections of subcultures that, um,
792
00:48:09.210 --> 00:48:12.770
it's not, I'm not just Canadian, I am, you know, I'm,
793
00:48:12.770 --> 00:48:14.890
well one I live in, in, in Vancouver,
794
00:48:15.030 --> 00:48:17.530
but I belong to various different social networks.
795
00:48:17.530 --> 00:48:20.890
And those have all shaped the way that I think. And, um,
796
00:48:20.890 --> 00:48:25.410
and that's the same for, for everyone. And all of those influences here, uh,
797
00:48:25.410 --> 00:48:29.970
have nudged us in the, into the person that we are now.
798
00:48:30.230 --> 00:48:35.050
And, um, and and including our views on, on very contentious moral issues.
799
00:48:35.320 --> 00:48:39.130
[Nolan] Definitely. Now, Steve, I know you need to go soon, um,</v>
800
00:48:39.190 --> 00:48:43.570
but to wrap up, I I wanna bring up your latest book,
801
00:48:43.940 --> 00:48:44.290
um,
802
00:48:44.290 --> 00:48:49.130
also in relation to what you just mentioned about how cultures are changing and,
803
00:48:49.620 --> 00:48:54.250
uh, you brought up ai, um, of course the internet.
804
00:48:54.700 --> 00:48:59.610
So in your latest book, I haven't read it yet, but DNA is Not Destiny, right?
805
00:48:59.660 --> 00:49:01.690
Um, I read that it's a, uh,
806
00:49:01.690 --> 00:49:06.530
persuasive warning against unreflecting acceptance of sound bites,
807
00:49:06.560 --> 00:49:11.010
tweets and headlines that simplify or distort reality.
808
00:49:11.660 --> 00:49:15.530
Uh, can you just give us a little bit of insight into this and what,
809
00:49:15.530 --> 00:49:16.490
what that means?
810
00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:20.890
[Dr. Heine] Sure. So, um, this book is, uh,</v>
811
00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:24.650
really what I'm exploring in is how people make sense of
812
00:49:26.120 --> 00:49:31.120
genes and genetic causation. And, uh, in it I refer to there as a,
813
00:49:31.120 --> 00:49:32.200
a psychological bias.
814
00:49:32.200 --> 00:49:36.720
And it's one of these ones that is more universal than others. Uh, we call it,
815
00:49:36.730 --> 00:49:40.000
um, uh, essentialism psychological essentialism.
816
00:49:40.060 --> 00:49:43.880
And that's where you understand the, the, the world, um,
817
00:49:43.970 --> 00:49:47.840
as the natural world as coming from some hidden, uh,
818
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:51.600
invisible forces that are deep down inside something.
819
00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:56.560
So if you wanna understand, you know, why is a dog like a dog, you think, well,
820
00:49:56.560 --> 00:50:01.280
it's born like a dog, that's all, all of those potentials are in it, um,
821
00:50:01.610 --> 00:50:05.440
uh, be before it was born. So it's not that it learns how to become a dog,
822
00:50:05.690 --> 00:50:09.760
it was born a dog. And, and in, in many ways, the,
823
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:14.600
the these assumptions can, uh, can, can be quite realistic. But I think, um,
824
00:50:14.680 --> 00:50:18.480
there, there's often many ways though too that they can be quite, uh,
825
00:50:18.480 --> 00:50:21.200
I think grossly mistaken. And I think our,
826
00:50:21.430 --> 00:50:25.680
this psychological bias that we have towards imagining that things are the way
827
00:50:25.680 --> 00:50:28.720
they are because of these hidden, unchanging, uh,
828
00:50:28.720 --> 00:50:33.480
forces inside those map very nicely to, um, the,
829
00:50:33.700 --> 00:50:37.920
the lay understanding of, of genetics that is that, uh,
830
00:50:38.210 --> 00:50:39.360
if you have a gene,
831
00:50:39.710 --> 00:50:44.040
then you are gonna develop whatever traits are associated with that gene in this
832
00:50:44.040 --> 00:50:47.600
direct one-to-one deterministic way. Um,
833
00:50:47.600 --> 00:50:51.480
and so you get some interesting sort of psychological reactions that,
834
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:56.000
that people will learn. That, uh, depression, for instance is something that,
835
00:50:56.090 --> 00:51:00.640
uh, is influenced by genes and researchers have even labeled.
836
00:51:00.640 --> 00:51:03.960
So things as like depression genes. And when people hear about that,
837
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:07.360
that makes them think about depression differently. Oh, it's,
838
00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:09.960
it's something that, uh, it's, you know, it's,
839
00:51:09.960 --> 00:51:14.360
it's not due to any fault on your own, that's just the way a person is born. Um,
840
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:17.600
but it also on the other hand, um, makes people, uh,
841
00:51:17.600 --> 00:51:20.680
a little more pessimistic about a prognosis as well.
842
00:51:20.680 --> 00:51:22.520
if I'm depressed, right, exactly.
843
00:51:22.780 --> 00:51:26.040
And that if I'm depressed and depression is genetic,
844
00:51:26.040 --> 00:51:30.440
that means I have depression genes, I'm always gonna have depression genes. Um,
845
00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:35.040
and that would, you know, the future doesn't look so bright in actuality. Uh,
846
00:51:35.040 --> 00:51:38.240
first of all, genes do influence every aspect of,
847
00:51:38.240 --> 00:51:42.560
of our psychology o of our nature. There is, they, they, um,
848
00:51:43.430 --> 00:51:44.650
you know, um,
849
00:51:44.650 --> 00:51:49.610
that is genes are one big influence for how we are and how
850
00:51:49.610 --> 00:51:54.130
all species are. But they don't operate in this direct one-to-one way,
851
00:51:54.130 --> 00:51:57.530
with a rare exception of some, some diseases, rare diseases,
852
00:51:57.530 --> 00:52:01.330
something like Huntington's disease is one where it really is this one-to-one
853
00:52:01.330 --> 00:52:04.770
mapping. Um, the vast majority of other cases, no, it's,
854
00:52:04.770 --> 00:52:09.250
you have some genetic potentials which are shaped by people's experiences that
855
00:52:09.250 --> 00:52:11.650
ultimately lead to, um, outcomes.
856
00:52:11.870 --> 00:52:15.690
But what we found in our research is when you just tell people that genes are
857
00:52:15.890 --> 00:52:18.970
involved, they end up thinking differently about something. So for example,
858
00:52:18.990 --> 00:52:22.930
one of our studies, we had, um, people read an, uh,
859
00:52:22.930 --> 00:52:27.290
what they believed was, um, a newspaper article describing some new research,
860
00:52:27.710 --> 00:52:31.130
but different groups of people read different articles.
861
00:52:31.130 --> 00:52:35.970
And one of those articles said that scientists have discovered existence of
862
00:52:35.970 --> 00:52:39.330
math genes, um, on the Y chromosome.
863
00:52:39.750 --> 00:52:43.970
And it's because of these genes that this explains why on average,
864
00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:48.130
uh, men outperform women on, on math tests.
865
00:52:48.620 --> 00:52:52.250
We had another group, yeah, we had another group read a different essay,
866
00:52:52.250 --> 00:52:56.410
and it said that, uh, scientists have identified that, um,
867
00:52:56.800 --> 00:53:00.250
teachers teach math differently to boys and to girls.
868
00:53:00.270 --> 00:53:04.490
And it's because of this that there's men tend to outperform women math tests.
869
00:53:04.490 --> 00:53:06.690
And then we had another group that read, actually,
870
00:53:06.690 --> 00:53:11.650
there's no differences in how men and women do on math tests. Um, and this is a,
871
00:53:11.650 --> 00:53:16.330
uh, has been result. It's a, uh, um, an inaccurate stereotype. Actually.
872
00:53:16.330 --> 00:53:19.650
There's a lot of debate just on how accurate or inaccurate the stereotype is,
873
00:53:19.650 --> 00:53:22.850
and the field has not reached a consensus on this. Uh, but anyways,
874
00:53:22.850 --> 00:53:27.240
what we find then, then we give people a math test. And, uh,
875
00:53:27.240 --> 00:53:30.760
what we found is, uh, actually all our participants are women. And, uh,
876
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:34.920
the women do worse on the math test when they're told about math genes that men
877
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:39.840
have. Um, in contrast, when we are told about, while the reason that, uh,
878
00:53:39.840 --> 00:53:43.200
there's sex differences in math performance is because of the way they've been
879
00:53:43.200 --> 00:53:47.960
socialized, that doesn't influence them. They did just as well on the,
880
00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:51.240
the math test as the other group where we said that there are no differences,
881
00:53:51.240 --> 00:53:52.400
sex differences in math.
882
00:53:52.660 --> 00:53:55.920
And so the idea is if their cause is something inside you,
883
00:53:55.920 --> 00:53:59.800
people think there's nothing I can do, it's, um, uh, it's,
884
00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:03.600
they have a very fatalistic take that that's just, uh, the way I'm going to be.
885
00:54:04.290 --> 00:54:07.080
Um, in contrast, if you think of something outside of you,
886
00:54:07.080 --> 00:54:08.520
it's coming through social norms.
887
00:54:08.520 --> 00:54:12.680
People have the idea that they can resist that somehow. That's not inside me. I,
888
00:54:12.680 --> 00:54:14.040
I, I, I can resist that.
889
00:54:14.100 --> 00:54:17.240
And I think the mistake is thinking because your genes are inside you,
890
00:54:17.240 --> 00:54:21.720
that means that anything that genes influence is gonna become determined and
891
00:54:21.720 --> 00:54:25.360
it's, and have a fatalistic reaction to it. And it doesn't work that way.
892
00:54:25.830 --> 00:54:30.760
That our genes are always, uh, reacting to experiences and that, uh,
893
00:54:30.820 --> 00:54:35.640
our, um, and that our experiences are, are a big influence on how we,
894
00:54:35.650 --> 00:54:38.080
uh, think about things. And, um, so anyways,
895
00:54:38.080 --> 00:54:41.840
that's what that that book is trying to point out is just the, um, uh,
896
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:42.960
really the, um,
897
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:47.840
how our psychological biases have these problematic reactions when we
898
00:54:48.040 --> 00:54:50.720
consider this new field of, of, uh, of, well,
899
00:54:50.720 --> 00:54:54.480
genetics is shaping sort of so many aspects of our life and now people can get
900
00:54:54.660 --> 00:54:57.800
information about their genes through companies like 23.
901
00:54:57.800 --> 00:54:59.560
And Me and my book is really about,
902
00:54:59.560 --> 00:55:02.560
that book is about how people are really grossly misunderstanding this and
903
00:55:02.560 --> 00:55:06.920
sometimes in some very harmful ways. And it's trying to push people to have a,
904
00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:10.360
uh, a, a more, um, po positive understanding,
905
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:13.200
more accurate understanding of the way that genes influence who we are.
906
00:55:14.150 --> 00:55:18.160
[Nolan] Very important book for this time. Um, now Steve,</v>
907
00:55:18.160 --> 00:55:20.440
I promise that we'd keep this under an hour, uh,
908
00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:24.880
cuz I could talk to you for [laughter] for a much longer time. As I said, your,
909
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:28.360
your book is one of my favorite books and, um, that I've,
910
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:32.640
that I've read and it's, uh, really changed the way I think and it's, uh,
911
00:55:32.640 --> 00:55:36.440
lived with me for the past, I guess seven, when did I first read the book?
912
00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:39.400
I guess six years ago or seven years ago. Okay. Um,
913
00:55:39.400 --> 00:55:43.600
so it's been an honor to have you on the show, um, everyone listening right now.
914
00:55:43.890 --> 00:55:45.800
If you want to support the show,
915
00:55:46.040 --> 00:55:50.800
please go to withoutborders.fyi. Um,
916
00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:55.160
you'll find a bunch of my articles there and in my articles you'll find many
917
00:55:55.160 --> 00:55:59.360
links to Steve's work [laughter] . Um, so if you want to purchase any of his books,
918
00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:02.760
you can find it on my website and you'll find the links there.
919
00:56:03.490 --> 00:56:08.120
Or of course you can, uh, look up the books yourself on Google. Uh, Steve,
920
00:56:08.120 --> 00:56:10.240
in any final words before we end the show.
921
00:56:10.470 --> 00:56:14.560
[Dr. Heine] Well, I really appreciate the kind words you um, uh, uh,</v>
922
00:56:14.560 --> 00:56:18.880
you just said about my book, but I do hope, yeah, that, that people realize, uh,
923
00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:21.360
that culture is something that, that you have,
924
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:24.600
that I think many people notice culture cuz they say, oh,
925
00:56:24.600 --> 00:56:26.080
other people from other parts of the world,
926
00:56:26.080 --> 00:56:29.080
they have these interesting cultures. And it can feel that are,
927
00:56:29.390 --> 00:56:32.120
that we don't really have, uh, much of a, a culture.
928
00:56:32.120 --> 00:56:36.480
It's just cuz it's invisible. It's what everyone around us is, is, is doing.
929
00:56:37.010 --> 00:56:38.800
Um, and uh, it's,
930
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:42.240
it's kind of like you're not aware of what accent you speak with,
931
00:56:42.240 --> 00:56:45.680
but of course you have an accent and it's just something you don't, uh,
932
00:56:45.680 --> 00:56:49.000
no notice it, but other people notice the accent that you have.
933
00:56:49.180 --> 00:56:50.680
And so it's just becoming this,
934
00:56:50.680 --> 00:56:54.880
this recognition that the way you are is because of the particular set of
935
00:56:55.120 --> 00:56:59.280
cultural values that has socialized you. And, um, and so I think it's,
936
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:03.880
it's a good exercise to try to reflect upon what are these different cultural
937
00:57:03.880 --> 00:57:07.200
sources that have led you to becoming the person who you are.
938
00:57:08.150 --> 00:57:12.040
[Nolan] Definitely. Thank you Steve. All right. And listeners,</v>
939
00:57:12.040 --> 00:57:17.000
thanks for tuning in and I hope you tune into the next episode. Have a good one.
940
00:57:17.200 --> 00:57:18.840
[Dr. Heine] Great. Thanks much for having me.</v>