E26 A Muslim & an Atheist hash out spirituality, PC culture, racism, and marriage
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Two close friends from different backgrounds discuss PC language, racism, growing up in a small town, returning to the Muslim faith, spirituality, and marriage.
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[Nolan] Inescapably Foreign. Welcome to Without Borders. I'm your host, Nolan. Yuma.
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I usually start off the show saying that this is the podcast for nomads,
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expats, refugees, immigrants, and anyone else that feels inescapably foreign.
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Of course,
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that usually involves people that have traveled or lived in different countries,
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but sometimes you can feel inescapably foreign without having lived in
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different countries.
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And that's the case with one of my best friends in the world, Usman Raza,
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who is here on the show today. And, uh, well, Usman, you're one of my,
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you've been one of my best friends for almost 15 years now,
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and I still don't know if I'm pronouncing your last name.
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[laughter] your first name correctly,
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because your white friends and your brown friends all just mix it up and at this
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point you just don't seem to care anymore. But, uh.
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[Usman] The last name's good. It, it's, it's a Raza Raza.
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It's the first thing you guys all get wrong. It's that Usman. It's Uman.
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[Nolan] Usman Usman.
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[Usman] There you go. There you go.
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[Nolan] [laughter] . I think at this point you just kind of gave up the.
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[Usman] It's not worth the trouble. It's not worth the trouble on the phone at work.
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It's not worth going. No, it's Usman. Usman is fine.
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[Nolan] Yeah, [laughter] . Well, what about people at work? What do they say?
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[Usman] Usk, Asman. I get like, people use,
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my last name was the first name all the time, like on emails. Listen, I just,
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I don't even bother to fight anymore. I just signed my email off the right way.
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It's the worst.
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[Nolan] [laughter] . I just, so the listers know. What,
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what are you doing for work right now?
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[Usman] Uh, I just started work as a product manager for a healthcare company.
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So that's like three weeks, man. It's brand new, still learning the role.
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[Nolan] Nice. And, um, how does your family feel about it?
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Are they supportive of the work or does your dad.
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[Usman] Oh, they’re proud man. Yeah, they're proud. They, and like,
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I guess like the whole aim was the work in healthcare as a doctor. That was the,
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that was the a plan. And I felt short of that, but, uh,
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I don't think I've ever heard them say they're proud, [laughter] . But I, uh,
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I hear them talk about me in the back, like, uh,
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if they're talking about what I do for work to other people,
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and I know they're happy, at least I'm,
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I'm making money and I work in healthcare is very content that my education
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paid off.
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[Nolan] Do do you think that's a common thing that par um,
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brown parents don't say that they're proud of their kids or.
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[Usman] I don't,
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I can't think of a single brown parent that says that they're proud of their
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kids and that they love their kids. [laughter] , if you talk to anybody, anybody,
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they'll be like, yeah, we don't, they don't say that. We don't express love.
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It's always like, in the back backhanded ways that you'll feel it and know it.
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[Nolan] What, what are some of those ways?
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[Usman] It's tough, man. Like how do I know?
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I guess like the absence of criticism, [laughter] , the absence of, um,
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something negative. It's tough. It's really hard to explain. You just know.
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[Nolan] But the absence of criticism feels like, oh, I love you.
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[Usman] Pretty much, man, if you're not, if you're not in trouble, you're doing good.
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[Nolan] Well, cuz you grew up in the West. Um, oh, well, just so the listeners know,
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we grew up in a pretty small town. Um, how many people live in Vernon? Like fif.
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[Usman] 3000. Congratulations. 40 some now 45.
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[Nolan] Okay. Okay. And this is in North America in Canada in British Columbia.
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Um,
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we were pretty lucky that we went to a pretty diverse high school
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considering the town that we lived in. Like, I I,
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I remember when we first went to Fulton, that was a school. Um,
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just so people know it was 60 different nationalities that went there.
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[Usman] 60. That's crazy.
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[Nolan] I know, to me it sounds like a lot, but I, i,
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that number's in my head and it kind of makes sense if you start thinking about
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all the different people that were there.
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And it think about like the exchange students that also come for like a year or
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two years. Um, but since you were,
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since you grew up in the west, did uh,
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did you feel like your parents loved you less because they just didn't express
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it as much as like the white parents would do around
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the kids or?
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[Usman] I wouldn't say so. I feel like growing up you don't know any different. Like,
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uh, and like when you grow up in,
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or when you're from a different culture and you grow up in the west,
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like the culture you grow up in is kind of everything. Like,
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I remember I had my own life at home,
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especially when you're first growing up and you're like,
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you don't have many outside friends, you just have your family.
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And that's what it is. Like,
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remember I had what life was and then I went to school to hang out with white
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people, [laughter] you guys. And then, um, as the years went on,
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it like transitioned to the other way around where like,
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majority of my life became what was with friends and less so at home. But, uh,
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in the beginning it's like your family, it's, they only kinda love, you know,
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like, you know that your dad loves you, you know that your mom loves you,
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but they show it in a different way than you see on TV than what western culture
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is. Uh, yeah. You just know things in feel things. It,
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it does feel unconditional in a way, but it's just not like, oh, I love you son.
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I go, great job. Like, it's not that It's, it's hard to put your finger on.
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You just know these things.
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[Nolan] [laughter] . Yeah.
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Does it even seem fake to you sometimes when people say like,
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I love you all the time because it's thrown around quite easily because even is,
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in case even me from like Belgium, uh,
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we don't say I love you to each other. Like, you know,
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usually when you talk to someone, uh, in Canada and your family,
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you always end the conversation saying, I love you.
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And I do that with my parents too now just cuz I'm, I grew up with it,
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but I would never say I love you to my grandma or to my cousins.
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Cuz that would just be so weird to say at the end of the conversation.
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And I think I did it once by accident and like my uncle was just like, uh,
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uh, bye [laughter] .
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[Usman] Thanks.
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[Nolan] Of course I love you. You don't need to say it.
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[Usman] [laughter] .
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And see and I could see it being a little bit exhausting,
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like, I mean, reserved for a special people only in real life. Like,
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I have a daughter, she's two. I tell her I love her all the time. Um,
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but uh, like to my parents,
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I can't remember if I've ever saying that to my parents.
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It's.
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[Nolan] Just What about your brother or cousins?
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[Usman] Oh, in special moments. My brothers and cousins, I'll say them too,
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but special moments, like heartfelt moments, but like,
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not like all the time on the phone. Um, yeah, it's just, it's a culture.
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We don't, we don't say that. We just don't say it. It's,
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it would be awkward for me just start saying it now and the on the end of like
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Phone sign offs. Um,
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but like I've been in like a long relationship right where I was married and
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then there I said it like all the time. Um,
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and it didn't really lose value or faith, but yeah, just with the parents.
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The parents, we, we never did, so it'd be weird to start.
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[Nolan] Yeah. And oh, oh, also with your cousins and brother,
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um, you do,
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do you really differentiate between your brother and your cousin when you were
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in the household or because of the, the words that you use?
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Isn't it the same word you use for brother and for cousin?
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[Usman] Well, we don't, well like, for our,
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for our situation,
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so like I grew up in like a traditional uh, uh,
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south Asian household. Like we had,
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at one point we had three families living in one house in the duplex in Mission
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Hill. Um, and so at one point there were,
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so we had two extra families and they each had three kids.
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So three plus three plus my brother and I.
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So 6, 7, 8, 8 kids all around.
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[Nolan] One duplex.
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[Usman] And a duplex at one point. Yeah. We were all,
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all the kids were born into that house. So those ones that I grew up with,
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I called them cousins, but really like, they were siblings.
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They all call me like, bye bye, which is like brother Usman.
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[Nolan] That's what I was getting at.
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[Usman] Yeah. So like for me, they're all like sisters and brothers to me. Uh,
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when I'm calling them it doesn't really feel like any different.
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And still like one se one family lives with us still and they're all,
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they're all sisters to me.
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[Nolan] Yeah. And you were the oldest right?
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[Usman] By a long sharp man.
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Like my brother who's closest to me in age is nine years younger than me.
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And then I think the youngest now in the family is, um,
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what is she in like grade four? Grade four?
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She's probably in, so I don't know what that makes. So like 10 10.
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So they range from like 10 to 21 right now and
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I'm 30. Yeah, that's a big spread.
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[Nolan] And that also put you higher up on the, the family hierarchy of course, right?
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[Usman] Absolutely, man. I’m like a liaison uncle. Like, I'm like,
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I'm like halfway between adults and like halfway between the kids. It's great.
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[Nolan] What, what were some of the pros and cons or in other words like the,
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the responsibilities but then also the um,
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yeah,
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the responsibilities and then also maybe a little bit more of the freedom you
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had as being the oldest or did you have less freedom being the oldest?
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[Usman] I feel like the, the con would've been like having the,
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the first nine years of my life be an only child.
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Like I didn't get that sibling rivalry or like that experience where like you
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have something to play with as a kid.
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And so I got to like go through that whole period, uh,
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being an only child and then come nine years old I have a brother and then I got
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to play like older sibling,
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but significantly older sibling where you just wanna like care and like,
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I don't know how make the,
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the brother's life like more fun and like share everything cuz you're excited to
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do it. Um, but uh,
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pros like you get to almost be like a, like a fun uncle.
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You get to play on the games, you get to do whatever you wanna do. Um, and uh,
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they all, especially when they were kids,
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they just like wanted someone to organize things and have fun like together as a
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family and I got to play that role, which is pretty cool. Um, yeah,
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I mean those are kind of it like now that they're older, they're like,
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they have their own stuff going on and I like this in between like adults
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and like above.
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[Nolan] But do you still get more respect from them? Do you find.
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[Usman] I definitely did and I definitely do still now,
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but probably not as much as I did then. Now I'm like, I'm like another adult.
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And also now like they're in their like late teens and early twenties now.
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It's like I'm,
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I'm chop liver to them men now they doing their own independent thing.
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I'm sure it'll come around when they're like in their mid twenties or late
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twenties.
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[Nolan] Uh, but do you think that's the western influence of where they're raised?
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Absolutely.
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[Usman] Yeah, absolutely. They stop calling Usman-bai now they call me Usman,
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which is like, uh, not disrespectful, but like their parents are like, come on,
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he's your elder. You should be saying a small bite. But they don't care anymore.
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Now they're more more western than anything. And uh, yeah, it's,
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it's more the transition, the age that they're in right now. Um,
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but they'll come around, we'll come around.
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[Nolan] [laughter] . Yeah, well we've, we've talked about that a lot, right?
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How when we sometimes hear women talk to their
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mothers,
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especially like Western Canadian women talking to their mothers and being like,
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mom, you're a bitch and like to you and I, that's just
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completely, that's the most awful things you could say or even do, right?
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Calling my mom a bitch. And it's so common cuz you, you've heard it a bunch.
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I've heard it a bunch and I kind of wish that we had a little bit more
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of this hierarchal culture,
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even though I'm someone that is like such an egalitarian, I have some,
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so many egalitarian views.
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I kind of see how this hierarchy can be beneficial in some cases because
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yeah.
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[Usman] Man, I,
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I can't remember a single time I raised my voice at my mom or dad. Like,
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never, never. Even if I disagree [laughter] with that parent,
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like I might not say it. Uh, let,
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don't calling them anything or telling 'em to shut up. Like the amount of,
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I don't know if I've actually seen it in a person,
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but like telling your parents to be quiet or shut up or annoying not happening,
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man, not happening in our culture. Uh, and I think it's good.
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Like you can disagree with your parents,
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but you don't have to like outwardly tell them and like fight with, they'll.
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[Nolan] Definitely,
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well for me it's like ingrained not to yell at my mom.
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Um, and also I, I rarely have any reason to, uh, my dad and I, I've,
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I've been too disrespectful. Like there are times where I think, oh my God, why,
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why did I yell that loud?
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But it almost feels like there's just so much testosterone in the atmosphere.
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[laughter] and I know are someone with a shit done at testosterone. Like you can,
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you can flip out even though you're usually a really calm and collected guy.
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Um, is that one of the reasons you think you got into martial arts sports?
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[Usman] Uh, I don't know why I got into martial arts. I feel like, like, you know,
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the journey better than most people man. Like what was it,
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grade 11 or just like, oh this is a cool little place to work out.
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Look at Nolan, he's building some muscle.
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And then I just got into like weightlifting to avoid being super
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scrawny.
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And then I just saw like a boxing class getting run at my,
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my weightlifting gym and I was like,
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I'm big but I don't know how to fight at all.
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And I always liked like boxing and uh,
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like m m A and watching the UFC so I just kinda like took a little baby step
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towards it and did a little bit of boxing and jiujitsu and now I do it more than
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anything just cuz it's the best workout. Like when it comes to um,
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like flexibility, strength, and cardio. It's a perfect balance. And uh,
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I like fighting.
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I like having like a little bit of like an aggression outlet that you can't
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really get another sports. Yeah. Um, yeah,
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I don't know about the high testosterone drive to do it.
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Like there is something like competitive and like fun and uh, about it. Uh,
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yeah, I don't know man. I just can't replace it.
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[Nolan] Would you consider yourself violent? Cause I like in Shantaram,
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I know it's one of the books you like as well and I I used to like it quite a
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bit. Um, yeah, what's one of the quotes?
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He says working out or going to the gym is a violence man's
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meditation [laughter] .
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And I've never really considered myself violent,
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but I can be hot tempered and sometimes the gym does feel
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like meditation and I mean, you and you and I were like the,
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the two [laughter] most muscular guys [laughter] in, uh,
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[laughter] the end of school because you guys
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[Usman] Brother.
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[Nolan] We were always at the gym at the end of school. Right. Um, but I don't know,
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I don't know if I agree with that. I,
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I don't know if I was a violent person because I I've rarely gotten in
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fights.
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D I don't think you have gotten in many fights other than when they're organized
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or.
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[Usman] Or with a very close friend. Yeah. [laughter] . Um,
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I I I don't know if I can say I’m a violent person. I feel like, um,
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everyone has that in them to like slip ball and get angry and then like in
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boxing or like jiujitsu,
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you can like kind of act out on that and it feels like you're actually a little
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bit more violent and aggressive and even at the gym, like, you know,
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right before bench press, like you get hyped up and you're ready,
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I'm gonna push, push out that weight. Yeah. Um, I wouldn't call it violent,
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it's more like a, like an aggression. You're,
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you're letting out like a burning off of steam. But as for violent,
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like I don't think I'm ever uncontrolled where I'm like,
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I'm unhinged and I'm ready to un rare occasions I might be,
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but like where I'm unhinged and like ready to like rap and be violent,
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I wanna consider myself that kind of a person.
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I'm usually quite calm like as you are too, right?
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[Nolan] I think it's lucky cuz we're both incredibly disciplined, right?
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Like we were those people,
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even when we were just super tired or at a bunch of work to do,
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we would always just still, okay, no, no, I have to go to the gym today. No,
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I have to study for this many hours because I have to be at the top 10% of my
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class or something. Right? We were, yeah, out of those [laughter] , those guys.
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[Usman] and the gym, like you and I, like, we, we are,
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we feel better after it more than anything. It's like,
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ugh, like I don't want to go, but like I know I'm gonna feel better.
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I know this is what I wanna do. And so it's, uh, it's a bit of a mix.
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It's like through the grogginess to get there. It,
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it always ends up paying off and you feel better afterwards. Um,
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and the alternative like did not go for a week, you feel awful. Right?
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So it's one of those things that just like, you gotta go.
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[Nolan] Yeah. Uh, um, oh, just to bring it in a different direction. Fuck.
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If I'm feeling like Joe Ro Joe Rogan right now we're talking about the gym and
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now I'm about to ask a question about political correctness. [laughter] .
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[Usman] How about T R T T, RT and [laughter] ?
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[Nolan] Is that the testosterone in the .
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[Usman] But.
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[Nolan] We'll stay away from that. We'll get back into culture [laughter] .
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Um, oh, but, so you mentioned Mission Hill and throughout high school,
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I never used the term, but so many people would use it.
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Both brown people and white people. Curry Hill.
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[Usman] That's a common one.
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[Nolan] How do, how do you feel about that? Like,
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now the landscape is quite a bit more politically correct.
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I don't know if that term is still used,
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but our gym teachers would even use that, right? Like [laughter] man, if.
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<v 3>You, if you don't, if you fuck up boys, you're running up Curry Hill.
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[Nolan] [laughter] , you know.
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[Usman] That's the right demographic. Spell that word.
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[Nolan] [laughter] . And how do you feel about it? Like,
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do you think since that was so common in like almost accepted at the school,
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at least among like the gym teachers and like the sport community and stuff,
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do you think that marginalized people in a way?
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Or do you just think and I don't know, it was just,
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that's just the way it is or?
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[Usman] Well, like, you know me, like I, I'm not,
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I'm not a very like PC leaning type person in my head.
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Like words are just words. Uh, like to some degree, uh, that's not true.
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Um, but like as for Curry Hill and like Mission Hill itself, I, uh,
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I never felt like anything was like a worthwhile jab at,
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at us, at the people that lived there to get upset about
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like Mission Hill, we, uh, we were such a like,
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diverse elementary school.
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We had a mural and in that mural,
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I don't think there was a single white person on that mural.
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There might have been, might have been one just for just for measure. But yeah,
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it was just like, um, like a, like a Sikh boy, uh, some other,
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um, Asian boy and a black boy. Like they're just,
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this was all multicultural and that's what was the emphasis on living in that
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area. And like Curry Hill, I mean the,
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the name came because it's kind of like what you smelled walking up and down the
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streets and it was the best, I had nothing to be upset about Curry Hill. Yeah.
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It's hard to get upset at those things.
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Like there wasn't very much that triggered me ever in high school or even here
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in the lower mainland.
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Like I don't get upset by racism and I could be just quite lucky in that I'm,
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um, brought up here and I don't feel like strongly threatened by anything,
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but, yeah. Led I'm,
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I'm not very easily offended when it comes to racist jokes.
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[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. But again, racist jokes are a little bit different than,
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than racism. I, some people will probably argue true that and say like, yes,
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it is, and it, and it can perpetuate violence, but I don't know, like we,
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I don't, I don't, that's why I'm asking you because I,
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I wanna know about your experience or any anyone else around you. Like,
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did you ever hear about that? Like, oh, because I'm a brown person in Vernon,
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I have certain disadvantages. Uh, did did you ever hear about that or was that,
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was that in the conversation in the community?
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[Usman] No, never. Never. Like, I mean, the conversation,
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if anything was in the conversation in our community was that, um,
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like the brown community and the white community are different.
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We just do things differently. Like, like white people have their way of life.
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Like you guys have, uh, I don't know, we have animals in the house.
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A number of people be like, oh, that's or terrible. Like how could they do that?
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Um, but like each had their own and it was never a disadvantage to be one,
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one or the other. You are just one or the other. Yeah. Um,
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and what people would talk about from people like, oh,
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they do these things this way and then vice versa. So like, us being,
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uh, born here and raised here, just like,
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it's kind of funny that each person looks at the other and they're like, oh,
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that's weird. But really it's just their own, uh, what,
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and it was never a disadvantage I would say ever in elementary school and high
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school. It almost felt like, at least I felt like it was, uh,
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it was a good thing to be a little bit different. I felt special having, uh,
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like a different culture than the one I would be going to school in. Yeah.
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Never a disadvantage.
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[Nolan] And I think that is in part because Mission Hill,
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the elementary school and then Fulton, the high school, because, uh,
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when I went to Fulton,
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it didn't matter that I was this Belgian kid who spoke a couple different
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languages and dressed a little different and stuff. But in elementary school,
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I didn't go to Mission Hill,
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I went to Kidston and Coldstream and I was a different story. Like I'm,
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I'm a white kid and I felt like I experienced a sort of racism there.
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I guess not racism,
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but like a sort of prejudice because I had like Nutella sandwiches.
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They would call those shit sandwiches and then they would like steal my lunch
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and throw it in the garbage. And like, I would just get bullied all the time.
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Um, [laughter] and like, I remember, you know, things would happen.
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Like we were the, the teachers, they just didn't even,
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it didn't even click how bullied I was like, I remember once,
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um, every,
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every name of the student in the class was written on the board and then
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there was like an anonymous vote, right? To see like who could be, um,
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uh, I don't know what it was like class president or something or something.
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It was for a small activity. And I'm the,
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I was the only person that didn't get a vote. And then.
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[Usman] I, like.
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[Nolan] I asked the teacher, I was like, could you not do this? And she was like, no,
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this is fair. And I was like, okay. I like another time. Um,
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we had to do a self portrait and my parents like, I don't know,
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maybe it's almost like snobby,
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but like my parents brought me to a lot of museums and like,
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I was raised in like certain high culture environments sometimes.
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So when I had to do the self-portrait, I drew myself naked because that,
401
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that's what I knew. Like it's, it's common to see a naked self-portrait.
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And then I got sent to the principal's office. My parents got called and,
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and [laughter] , all that shit.
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[Usman] Oh my God, man, you had it way worse than I did. Like, the only,
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the only difference that I felt ever was like the fact that I,
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um, like I, I grew up in a Muslim family rather than a Sikh family.
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I felt it did feel a few degrees different than everybody else,
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but it never like, manifested itself at school or in school.
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Like the only thing that might've been different was that, uh, I,
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I was eating halal, right?
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And so the fact that I had couldn't partake in certain lunches, um,
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yeah,
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that was the only thing that choices around food that ever came up that made me
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feel a little bit different. But yeah, nothing like,
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nothing like you experienced.
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And it could have just been because we had so many different cultures in Mission
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Hill, like a lot and it felt like we had like a,
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almost like a bigger community than than say, uh, white people at our school.
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It was a half and half. So you never felt like you're marginalized or different.
420
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Um, interesting man. I feel so bad for you.
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[Nolan] [laughter] No, it's not. That's definitely not the point of this story. I don't,
422
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I don't feel bad for me it's [laughter] .
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[Usman] I'm just on the air [laughter] .
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[Nolan] Um,
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but that was something else I was gonna ask you about is because I know that you
426
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were raised Muslim and um,
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the majority of brown people in our school were Sikh and then were quite a few
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Hindu as well.
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[Usman] None.
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[Nolan] No, it was mostly.
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[Usman] High school. I can't remember.
432
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There might have been one person in our grade that was Hindu,
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but the majority of people were Sikh and myself and one other guy
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that you and I know are Muslim, but the majority in Vernon were Sikh.
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[Nolan] Okay. And so aside from the food, there was no, there was no tension there.
436
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Like you still felt like one community in a way?
437
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[Usman] Well, like they,
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we all grew up on the same street and we were all just like almost the same age
439
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and a few years apart here and there. Um,
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and the only difference was that they went to the, the Sikh temple, the ura.
441
00:25:13.510 --> 00:25:16.370
And um, we went to what was a mosque?
442
00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:19.850
It was like a makeshift mosque at the time growing up. Um,
443
00:25:19.850 --> 00:25:23.530
and the religions are different, but we spoke the same language.
444
00:25:23.550 --> 00:25:26.010
I'm from an area in Pakistan where we speak Punjabi,
445
00:25:26.610 --> 00:25:29.850
where the majority of Pakistan speaks Urdu. So that helped.
446
00:25:29.850 --> 00:25:34.250
But we spoke the same language so I could talk to their parents. Um, yeah,
447
00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:35.450
it felt like the same community.
448
00:25:35.630 --> 00:25:40.210
And the culture is really similar to the way we eat, what we eat, how we speak,
449
00:25:40.210 --> 00:25:42.370
the, the traditions. Um,
450
00:25:42.370 --> 00:25:45.050
so they play off each other so you don't really notice much.
451
00:25:46.150 --> 00:25:50.570
[Nolan] And what about Ramadan? Uh, since most people,
452
00:25:50.840 --> 00:25:54.570
I guess you were one of the few people practicing it at the school. Uh,
453
00:25:54.570 --> 00:25:58.170
how did that feel at the beginning? Well, I like, I know your story of course,
454
00:25:58.170 --> 00:25:59.250
but just for the listeners.
455
00:25:59.800 --> 00:26:03.370
[Usman] Yeah, like Ramadan, it was not difficult for me as a kid.
456
00:26:03.370 --> 00:26:07.690
Like when I was younger, I used to keep all the fasts. Um,
457
00:26:08.020 --> 00:26:11.090
up until like high school, high school is where I got a little bit,
458
00:26:11.090 --> 00:26:15.730
a little bit lazier. But uh, in elementary school I, uh,
459
00:26:15.730 --> 00:26:17.810
it wasn't hard for me. Me like,
460
00:26:17.810 --> 00:26:20.890
I used to be really keen on keeping up the fast and I would, uh,
461
00:26:21.550 --> 00:26:24.880
I wouldn't have a hard time. I'd feel I'd actually be quite excited.
462
00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:28.760
Keeping fast in early. No, no, no, it wasn't, wasn't harder for me. Mm-hmm.
463
00:26:28.800 --> 00:26:30.840
Um, I don't even know if everybody noticed.
464
00:26:30.840 --> 00:26:35.040
I can't remember what that felt like growing up cuz I did it all through
465
00:26:35.040 --> 00:26:39.810
elementary school, uh, without issue. Uh, but then in high school, high school,
466
00:26:39.810 --> 00:26:40.810
I just, God bless.
467
00:26:41.190 --> 00:26:43.120
[Nolan] You started working out with me. You needed, needed,
468
00:26:43.120 --> 00:26:44.440
you needed food all the time.
469
00:26:45.630 --> 00:26:48.240
[Usman] Once, uh, I think that was the year I was like, you know what,
470
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:52.280
I gotta put on some muscle. Sorry, I can't get all my grams of protein. Uh, uh,
471
00:26:52.280 --> 00:26:55.440
within, uh, the hours of sunlight. Sorry mom.
472
00:26:55.590 --> 00:26:57.360
I got busy day as our school.
473
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:01.110
[Nolan] [laughter] . Uh, what was your favorite part of Ramadan?
474
00:27:01.110 --> 00:27:03.270
Cause you've described it to me once and
475
00:27:03.270 --> 00:27:06.230
[Usman] Oh, dude, Ramadan is a, it's actually,
476
00:27:06.820 --> 00:27:11.070
it's hard now that I live away from home. But if I lived at home,
477
00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:15.590
I would partake because it is a pretty great
478
00:27:15.590 --> 00:27:19.150
experience that it brings a family closer. It feels, cuz like you,
479
00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:23.750
you fast from sunrise to sunset and so you wake up, uh,
480
00:27:23.750 --> 00:27:26.710
in the middle of the night and um,
481
00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:31.670
like everyone's making food and preparing and drinking as much water as
482
00:27:31.670 --> 00:27:35.190
they can. And then they wake up for prayer, right? So like, you wake up,
483
00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:38.870
the house is bustling and it smells like cooking and everyone's groggy and tired
484
00:27:38.870 --> 00:27:43.870
and you eat and then you go to bed, you wake up and uh,
485
00:27:44.170 --> 00:27:47.030
you carry on throughout your day and it's usually easier in the morning.
486
00:27:47.030 --> 00:27:48.470
And then as a day progresses just,
487
00:27:48.470 --> 00:27:51.470
it gets a little bit harder and the first few days are always a roughest.
488
00:27:51.570 --> 00:27:55.630
And then in the evening you're all like waiting. What time is sunset?
489
00:27:55.630 --> 00:27:57.830
You're able to look on the computer or whatever.
490
00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:01.510
And then everyone's waiting on the table and you break the fast with the,
491
00:28:01.510 --> 00:28:05.520
with a date. Uh, and then you, you you eat at dinner.
492
00:28:06.250 --> 00:28:10.080
Um, and uh, my favorite experience is, is probably the,
493
00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:14.640
the waking up to keep the fast. Uh, and then Eid at the very end. Like,
494
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:18.480
it's basically like Christmas at the end of 30 days of fasting.
495
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:19.840
So it feels that much better.
496
00:28:19.840 --> 00:28:24.160
Like you did a whole month of fasting and the day of celebration where you take
497
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:25.440
a day off, uh,
498
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:29.120
and the food that's made at Eid and all the family gets together and you go to
499
00:28:29.120 --> 00:28:32.440
the mosque for prayer and you see family. And then usually at the end of, uh,
500
00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:35.280
like the, the eat prayer, uh, I give everyone together.
501
00:28:35.280 --> 00:28:39.240
It's like shaking their hands and hugging and saying Eid Mubarak. Uh, it's a,
502
00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:41.200
it's a great day. Like it's a Christmas.
503
00:28:41.200 --> 00:28:44.520
But then not only is it with your family's, with the whole community, uh,
504
00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:47.560
it's a, it's a great month. It's a great holy month for us.
505
00:28:47.560 --> 00:28:52.120
And I still enjoy it even now when I'm not around family and I get to go back on
506
00:28:52.120 --> 00:28:54.080
either, it's still a fun time for me.
507
00:28:54.530 --> 00:28:58.180
[Nolan] Yeah, yeah. So the connection is a big one.
508
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:00.460
And then you also told me that it,
509
00:29:00.460 --> 00:29:03.660
it kind of helps you get in tune with your body as well, right?
510
00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:06.380
[Usman] Yeah. I mean, so like,
511
00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:10.340
it sounds crazy cuz no food for Zenex sunset is one thing,
512
00:29:10.340 --> 00:29:15.340
but no water is, uh, what people seem to be most surprised about.
513
00:29:15.840 --> 00:29:17.980
And uh, you get used to it.
514
00:29:18.040 --> 00:29:23.020
You kind of learn that you don't need to be eaten and drinking all the time and
515
00:29:23.020 --> 00:29:24.060
it gives your body a rest.
516
00:29:24.360 --> 00:29:27.940
And when I was younger and doing it and like once you get used to it after a
517
00:29:27.940 --> 00:29:32.060
couple days, you, I don't know, you just, you feel,
518
00:29:32.060 --> 00:29:36.300
you definitely feel like lighter, cleaner, a little bit more clearheaded. Um,
519
00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:39.140
I guess I should be doing it this year. Maybe I'll,
520
00:29:39.140 --> 00:29:43.120
maybe I'll remember the benefits of it. But you do feel quite good.
521
00:29:43.620 --> 00:29:48.160
[Nolan] One thing it makes me think about is, uh, the stats around mental illness.
522
00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:51.720
Like a lot of the time people think mental illness is like a chemical imbalance
523
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:53.240
and that it's an individual thing,
524
00:29:53.540 --> 00:29:56.440
but a lot of the time it's culture-based and the,
525
00:29:56.440 --> 00:30:00.520
the culture that you're from influences the type of mental illnesses that you're
526
00:30:00.520 --> 00:30:02.320
prone to. For an example,
527
00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:06.520
like anorexia is something that is very western
528
00:30:07.340 --> 00:30:11.560
and in many like Muslim countries, it almost doesn't exist.
529
00:30:11.980 --> 00:30:16.440
And even they even did a study with a group of women, uh,
530
00:30:16.750 --> 00:30:19.720
raised in the west, but from a, from a pack. Uh,
531
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.080
their background was from Pakistan and it was almost just,
532
00:30:23.080 --> 00:30:25.840
it was also just not prevalent in that group of women.
533
00:30:26.110 --> 00:30:29.960
Even though when they looked at all the other women raised in that,
534
00:30:30.110 --> 00:30:31.080
from that school,
535
00:30:31.080 --> 00:30:35.240
there was always a certain percentage that had eating disorders and things like
536
00:30:35.240 --> 00:30:37.440
this. So I, I'm not sure,
537
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.960
but I wonder if Ramadan plays a role in it or if maybe it's just something else
538
00:30:41.960 --> 00:30:46.240
from the Muslim teachings that kind of influence you to be more in tune with
539
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:51.120
your body so you're not as prone to these, these eating disorders. I don't know.
540
00:30:51.870 --> 00:30:53.160
[Usman] That's tough. Like,
541
00:30:53.310 --> 00:30:57.680
I mean I wouldn't be surprised that like anorexia rates in Pakistan are
542
00:30:57.840 --> 00:31:01.800
lower. Um, like mental illnesses are there for sure.
543
00:31:01.800 --> 00:31:04.760
But when it comes to like eating, at least in my culture,
544
00:31:04.760 --> 00:31:08.440
it's like the more you eat, the healthier you are, the more weight you have,
545
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:12.800
the healthier you are across all spectrum unless you legitimately are obese.
546
00:31:12.820 --> 00:31:17.480
But that, that, like, that window seems much wider in all culture,
547
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:19.520
especially for the guys like man,
548
00:31:19.520 --> 00:31:23.720
as long as I can remember to my grandma like I need to eat more.
549
00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:26.640
Like I look what what's called uh, they call it dry.
550
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.960
Like you look like shriveled up [laughter] salon, you need to eat more.
551
00:31:30.140 --> 00:31:34.880
And even on the women, it's the same thing where like you want to be more, um,
552
00:31:35.270 --> 00:31:38.880
I dunno, you have a wider window into where you're considered attractive,
553
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.040
rather attractive I think. And in general,
554
00:31:41.420 --> 00:31:45.520
the more you eat, the heavier you are, the healthier you are. That's synonymous.
555
00:31:45.820 --> 00:31:48.360
The heavier you are, the healthier you are always.
556
00:31:48.360 --> 00:31:51.680
And so my grandma would always put an extra butter in my food and [laughter] .
557
00:31:52.140 --> 00:31:53.320
[Nolan] Ghee butter, right?
558
00:31:53.510 --> 00:31:56.600
[Usman] Yeah. Well it's all the same to us, but butter butter we call it Ghee.
559
00:31:57.270 --> 00:31:58.240
[Nolan] Okay. Okay.
560
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:00.080
[Usman] Okay. It's all the same to us. Yeah.
561
00:32:02.020 --> 00:32:04.990
Well this a thrill, like depression is still there,
562
00:32:04.990 --> 00:32:07.070
like anxiety on all that stuff. He's still there,
563
00:32:07.070 --> 00:32:10.630
but I would assume it slightly lower rates than the triggers are a little bit
564
00:32:10.630 --> 00:32:13.790
different. Um, but I think what helps us is that we have,
565
00:32:13.790 --> 00:32:16.030
we live in bigger families, we're not isolated.
566
00:32:16.330 --> 00:32:21.190
And so being in communities and together with your family probably helps a
567
00:32:21.190 --> 00:32:25.710
lot rather than being isolated on your own and feeling alone in that certain
568
00:32:25.710 --> 00:32:26.543
way.
569
00:32:26.610 --> 00:32:30.180
[Nolan] Definitely. Now we'll get a little bit more personal here,
570
00:32:30.180 --> 00:32:34.580
but in the past year we've been calling a lot because you had some
571
00:32:34.820 --> 00:32:38.380
struggles as well with mental illness. Um, you're doing great right now,
572
00:32:38.380 --> 00:32:39.213
I think.
573
00:32:39.450 --> 00:32:44.320
Do you think maybe that was part what triggered it is this isolation from
574
00:32:44.320 --> 00:32:49.120
your family because you were, you were disowned from your family,
575
00:32:49.120 --> 00:32:51.200
right? At some point your mother said,
576
00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:55.480
you're not my son anymore because you married a white atheist
577
00:32:56.060 --> 00:32:56.893
and um,
578
00:32:56.940 --> 00:33:01.840
you sacrificed your family for a woman and you
579
00:33:01.840 --> 00:33:02.880
were disowned for that.
580
00:33:03.650 --> 00:33:07.920
Do you think that could have played a big role cuz you didn't have that family
581
00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:09.120
unit at that point?
582
00:33:09.950 --> 00:33:10.800
[Usman] Absolutely.
583
00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:15.000
That was a big part of it actually feeling like you were feeling like I was in
584
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.080
between two families and then all of a sudden left with, with none.
585
00:33:19.420 --> 00:33:22.240
And so I had to do a lot of thinking,
586
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:24.680
like deeper thinking about what it meant to be,
587
00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:29.800
what it means to actually be alone versus what you belong to and where you come
588
00:33:29.800 --> 00:33:33.280
from. So that was, uh, took a lot, a lot of digging.
589
00:33:33.280 --> 00:33:37.320
But I think that if I had like remained closer to family and had family always
590
00:33:37.320 --> 00:33:41.640
there in the wings, I wouldn't have felt like that. Um, cuz yeah,
591
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:45.760
back at that time it truly felt like I was alone. Cause they didn't have either.
592
00:33:45.770 --> 00:33:48.600
It didn't feel like I had any resemblance of family.
593
00:33:48.630 --> 00:33:53.200
I was just gonna be on my own and which I like realized like isn't true.
594
00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:55.880
Uh, and it's only like a feeling, it's a temporary feeling.
595
00:33:56.220 --> 00:33:59.520
Cuz regardless of my mom saying one thing when she was upset,
596
00:33:59.630 --> 00:34:03.160
like it still is where I come from and like no matter what,
597
00:34:03.270 --> 00:34:06.800
like I will be always like their, their son.
598
00:34:06.840 --> 00:34:10.960
Like the brother, uh, sibling, like a nephew. Um,
599
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:13.960
so it was definitely a feeling and you feel like you're isolated.
600
00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:15.200
I felt like I was isolated,
601
00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:18.680
but then I realized there's something you can't take from me and that's the fact
602
00:34:18.680 --> 00:34:19.880
that that's where I come from.
603
00:34:20.330 --> 00:34:21.163
[Nolan] Yeah.
604
00:34:21.630 --> 00:34:26.350
And now you're kind of returning to the Muslim faith
605
00:34:26.350 --> 00:34:27.310
in a way, right?
606
00:34:27.310 --> 00:34:30.430
I think in your own way you're exploring the spirit
607
00:34:30.430 --> 00:34:32.350
spirituality of it. Um,
608
00:34:32.350 --> 00:34:36.670
but before we get into the reasons that you're kind of returning into it, uh,
609
00:34:36.670 --> 00:34:41.430
why were the reasons that you kind of left the Muslim faith for a a while?
610
00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:45.110
[Usman] I think, um, it's tough to say like leaving it,
611
00:34:45.110 --> 00:34:48.670
it's like when you're growing up, uh, in a western culture,
612
00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:54.310
it's a lot trickier to feel like you're part of the faith because it's kind of
613
00:34:54.310 --> 00:34:56.790
like you're at home life and when you're growing up you,
614
00:34:56.790 --> 00:34:58.990
when you come to school, you kind of wanna be like everybody else.
615
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:03.430
It seems much more easier and much more enjoyable and fun than you wanna be like
616
00:35:03.630 --> 00:35:04.370
everyone else.
617
00:35:04.370 --> 00:35:08.750
And so growing up it just felt like a burden to carry around like the
618
00:35:08.990 --> 00:35:09.950
responsibilities of a religion.
619
00:35:09.950 --> 00:35:13.710
So you start to like hang out with your friends and wanna be like them.
620
00:35:14.200 --> 00:35:16.580
And then the older you get, at least for me,
621
00:35:16.580 --> 00:35:19.380
like I started to realize the benefits that I,
622
00:35:19.380 --> 00:35:24.300
that would've came if I would've stuck to being a little bit more practicing
623
00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:26.740
and doing the things properly. And now,
624
00:35:27.120 --> 00:35:32.060
now like a little bit older than like a little bit over in their thirties
625
00:35:32.060 --> 00:35:35.580
now, uh, now I, I it's tough.
626
00:35:35.580 --> 00:35:38.720
I still don't really know like where I sit with it all,
627
00:35:38.980 --> 00:35:43.920
but I kind of have more of an appreciation for like what the
628
00:35:44.120 --> 00:35:46.360
religion teaches and what the principles are.
629
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:48.960
Maybe I don't like partake in all the actions,
630
00:35:48.960 --> 00:35:51.080
but I appreciate it quite a bit more.
631
00:35:51.140 --> 00:35:54.120
And I think all religions I appreciate more than it ever used to,
632
00:35:54.370 --> 00:35:56.760
no matter where you come from, what your background is.
633
00:35:57.060 --> 00:36:02.000
And I'm prouder for coming from mine than I used to be say in my late teens,
634
00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:02.833
early twenties.
635
00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:08.140
[Nolan] And what's it like for you as a science based guy? I mean you studied biology,
636
00:36:08.290 --> 00:36:09.700
you're like me, right?
637
00:36:09.700 --> 00:36:14.460
You hate when people have an opinion without backing it with facts, right?
638
00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:17.180
You're a very factual guy, science based guy.
639
00:36:18.200 --> 00:36:21.860
How do you kind of mix, um,
640
00:36:22.580 --> 00:36:24.380
believing in all Allah, right?
641
00:36:25.740 --> 00:36:28.390
With kind of like all your science based backgrounds.
642
00:36:28.390 --> 00:36:30.790
How are you mixing the two? How are.
643
00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:35.570
[Usman] It's tough. It's like when you hear things from other people that are like, uh,
644
00:36:36.490 --> 00:36:39.770
religious, when you hear them say certain things and you're like, oh,
645
00:36:39.770 --> 00:36:42.970
that's not true [laughter] , it's hard to be around it.
646
00:36:42.970 --> 00:36:46.530
It's hard to hear it and you just like let it go because that's what they
647
00:36:46.530 --> 00:36:51.090
believe and that's what they think. So like what I probably do in my head's,
648
00:36:51.090 --> 00:36:56.050
like wherever science like leaves off wherever there's a spot where it's a
649
00:36:56.050 --> 00:37:00.290
gray area, it's not sure like whatever that's the big bang or, uh,
650
00:37:00.290 --> 00:37:03.450
the origin of planets and space and time.
651
00:37:03.630 --> 00:37:07.090
You just gotta like insert religion there. Like hey, maybe like what if,
652
00:37:07.090 --> 00:37:10.970
what if this is true? What if that's true? Um, and uh,
653
00:37:10.970 --> 00:37:13.610
like even experiences in my life, uh,
654
00:37:13.610 --> 00:37:18.050
like certain times it's like you can kind of feel things might go either way.
655
00:37:18.050 --> 00:37:22.370
I just kind of keep it to myself and I'd like to believe there's something, um,
656
00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:28.450
more than us. But uh, yeah, I just don't explore that cuz I know it's a,
657
00:37:28.450 --> 00:37:32.370
it's a dead end. Like no matter how much you think about it, it's a dead end,
658
00:37:32.370 --> 00:37:36.330
a certain, a certain point. Yeah. And uh, you just kind of like act like okay,
659
00:37:36.330 --> 00:37:38.370
like what if that is true? What if that's the case?
660
00:37:38.630 --> 00:37:39.890
And I think more than anything,
661
00:37:39.890 --> 00:37:43.690
what I appreciate from religion is like the teachings and the principles and the
662
00:37:43.690 --> 00:37:44.890
stories. Uh,
663
00:37:44.890 --> 00:37:48.850
that's what I place the value on rather than what is actually true.
664
00:37:48.850 --> 00:37:53.450
Because if you get down that it's hard to leave behind what I've learned
665
00:37:53.660 --> 00:37:55.770
through education and all that stuff.
666
00:37:55.770 --> 00:38:00.730
So it's hard to mix like pragmatism with um, what I came from,
667
00:38:00.730 --> 00:38:01.610
what the religion is.
668
00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:06.130
[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. Well it's, it's true. But of course like you,
669
00:38:06.130 --> 00:38:09.370
you can do that personally, but if you want to really be a Muslim,
670
00:38:09.550 --> 00:38:13.970
you have to believe in in Allah. Otherwise it just can, right? Because I mean,
671
00:38:13.970 --> 00:38:14.570
and the Quran,
672
00:38:14.570 --> 00:38:19.090
it does say my mercy embraces all things unless you don't believe me,
673
00:38:19.090 --> 00:38:20.490
then you're fucked. Right?
674
00:38:20.690 --> 00:38:23.210
[Usman] [laughter] , it's true. Those is, that's one of the main principles.
675
00:38:23.210 --> 00:38:26.330
Like you have to believe there's three principles about of like being a Muslim
676
00:38:26.330 --> 00:38:30.530
and one is like you have to believe, um, uh,
677
00:38:30.940 --> 00:38:35.640
in God and you have to believe that the prophet was the last, uh, messenger.
678
00:38:35.700 --> 00:38:36.880
And it's a third belief.
679
00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:40.720
And it's just like if you have those three be there's five pillars in total,
680
00:38:40.830 --> 00:38:45.360
you're good. And if any one of those are untrue, uh, on the day of judgment,
681
00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:49.680
they will know and you ain't getting into heaven. So you have to believe those.
682
00:38:49.680 --> 00:38:52.600
And so, you know, I think I got my bases covered. [laughter] .
683
00:38:53.930 --> 00:38:56.360
[Nolan] Do you think as a, as a modern Muslim,
684
00:38:56.360 --> 00:39:01.000
you're allowed to kind of redefine what God or Allah is to you? Like,
685
00:39:01.000 --> 00:39:03.040
cuz for me, uh,
686
00:39:03.040 --> 00:39:07.960
I find it such hubris in any religion when people think
687
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.800
that we are built in the image of God, uh,
688
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:15.080
just from the size of the universe also just like with all our flaws and
689
00:39:15.080 --> 00:39:19.960
everything. Um, if God is anything, to me, like I,
690
00:39:20.150 --> 00:39:23.520
I think about, um, I forget where the quote comes from. Bill,
691
00:39:24.150 --> 00:39:25.720
bill someone says,
692
00:39:25.810 --> 00:39:30.080
we are all one consciousness experiencing life subjectively
693
00:39:30.850 --> 00:39:35.230
and this consciousness or this connection that we have,
694
00:39:35.400 --> 00:39:38.950
whether to each other, whether it be to animals, whether it be to the planet,
695
00:39:38.950 --> 00:39:42.070
right? I mean when it comes to hallucinogens,
696
00:39:42.070 --> 00:39:44.430
you sometimes experience that connection.
697
00:39:44.430 --> 00:39:48.510
And sometimes to me that could be God when you're kind of ex sometimes you have
698
00:39:48.510 --> 00:39:52.190
these experiences where like everything that there ever has been,
699
00:39:52.190 --> 00:39:56.230
everything that ever will be you're experiencing in that present and you just
700
00:39:56.230 --> 00:39:59.550
feel so connected to everything. To me that could be God,
701
00:40:00.290 --> 00:40:04.230
but God looking like me, hell no, he's gotta be better.
702
00:40:04.230 --> 00:40:08.270
He's gotta be a lot better than me. [laughter] . Like he, I don't think he looks,
703
00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:12.550
he doesn't take some form, right? He could take every form or no form, but.
704
00:40:12.660 --> 00:40:17.150
[Usman] It's true. It's true. And it, it's all in the stories. Like it's hard to,
705
00:40:17.620 --> 00:40:22.110
from like a modern day perspective to like even like fathom what
706
00:40:22.500 --> 00:40:27.190
what God could be to anybody. Um, it's, yeah,
707
00:40:27.190 --> 00:40:30.470
I guess I don't really devote much of my time to exploring that,
708
00:40:30.470 --> 00:40:31.910
like what that means to me these days.
709
00:40:32.370 --> 00:40:37.210
But that's the issue that I think I have with religion when things are so
710
00:40:37.210 --> 00:40:40.010
strict and it's more about what it means,
711
00:40:40.010 --> 00:40:42.450
like what the book says rather than what it means to you.
712
00:40:42.750 --> 00:40:47.210
And there's so many ways of like interpretation and um, and,
713
00:40:47.210 --> 00:40:50.010
and in Islamic culture we put a lot of um,
714
00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:53.930
faith in what the scholars and the imams and people that like dissect the book,
715
00:40:54.460 --> 00:40:57.810
uh, say and like whatever they say, that's what we go off.
716
00:40:57.810 --> 00:40:59.770
[Nolan] And that's what the grandfather was.
717
00:40:59.930 --> 00:41:00.930
[Usman] Yeah,
718
00:41:00.930 --> 00:41:04.850
my grandfather's a what they call a Tafsir and so he's kind of like in between.
719
00:41:04.940 --> 00:41:06.930
So he's, he's quite high up, uh,
720
00:41:06.930 --> 00:41:09.810
in the religious hierarchy and he knows quite a bit.
721
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:14.850
He's heard a lot of stories from other elders, uh, in the community in Pakistan.
722
00:41:14.850 --> 00:41:15.810
So yeah,
723
00:41:15.810 --> 00:41:19.370
people place a lot of faith in the people that are quite high in the church
724
00:41:19.370 --> 00:41:21.490
similar to a priest. Uh,
725
00:41:21.490 --> 00:41:25.850
and it's less about what it means to you and more about what they say
726
00:41:26.470 --> 00:41:30.690
and I think there's less room for that in Islam of like what it means to you
727
00:41:31.040 --> 00:41:34.520
rather than uh, what they're telling you.
728
00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:38.280
And so I kind of do wish there was a little more flexibility in the culture,
729
00:41:38.300 --> 00:41:42.360
but I think the reason why it appeals to a lot of people is cuz it is so rigid.
730
00:41:43.170 --> 00:41:44.480
Um, and, but.
731
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:49.040
[Nolan] It seems a lot more rigid in Pakistan than let's say where it doesn't, um,
732
00:41:50.010 --> 00:41:53.720
in, uh, like Morocco, like when I talked to Muslims from Morocco,
733
00:41:53.720 --> 00:41:57.040
it seems a lot more flexible than like Muslims from Pakistan.
734
00:41:57.770 --> 00:42:01.400
[Usman] It varies country to country for sure. In Pakistan it's quite strict.
735
00:42:01.490 --> 00:42:05.520
In Saudi Arabia it's the strictest and Dubai maybe even more so.
736
00:42:05.650 --> 00:42:08.680
So it depends on where you are in the culture you're in. But uh,
737
00:42:08.680 --> 00:42:10.400
as for someone who grew up in like a Western culture,
738
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:15.000
like things like in our culture quite, we appreciate flexibility, Like
739
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:18.640
we do well with ridget, depends on where you're from and how you're.
740
00:42:18.640 --> 00:42:21.680
[Nolan] Raised. Yeah, yeah. Well we,
741
00:42:21.680 --> 00:42:24.880
we've been talking a lot about the good things, uh,
742
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:28.880
from religion and how it played a played a role in your life and [laughter] ,
743
00:42:28.880 --> 00:42:31.840
I've gotta say throughout my whole life you've been one of my friends I've
744
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:36.000
looked up to in many ways. Uh, I think well discipline,
745
00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:37.840
we're both like that. But you've also,
746
00:42:37.950 --> 00:42:40.880
you've been a little bit less wild than me, [laughter] .
747
00:42:42.110 --> 00:42:42.680
[Usman] I've done.
748
00:42:42.680 --> 00:42:45.920
[Nolan] Something. Um, you've always liked, I mean,
749
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:49.320
almost every job interview you've went to, you've gotten,
750
00:42:49.320 --> 00:42:53.960
you've always been that person who's able to like have two drinks and then drive
751
00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:57.560
your friends home instead of being like getting drunk all night. You've,
752
00:42:57.560 --> 00:42:59.400
you've always been in quite a bit in control.
753
00:42:59.400 --> 00:43:01.720
Of course there are moments in life where things change,
754
00:43:02.580 --> 00:43:06.200
but one thing that I've noticed in,
755
00:43:06.200 --> 00:43:10.960
In, uh, from our relationship and I discovered that recently was that religion
756
00:43:11.230 --> 00:43:15.240
caused you to be a liar at some point, right?
757
00:43:15.240 --> 00:43:19.760
And of course you lied to me, you lied to a lot of people really close to you.
758
00:43:19.780 --> 00:43:21.480
And why forgive you?
759
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:25.360
Because you're one of my best friends in the world and I unconditionally love
760
00:43:25.360 --> 00:43:27.660
you. But it it,
761
00:43:27.670 --> 00:43:32.460
it does seem like religion and being raised in a religious family is what kind
762
00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:34.260
of forced you to lie.
763
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:38.940
And now you're kind of having to get that outta your system.
764
00:43:38.940 --> 00:43:42.980
Like how do I not lie to people so I can, you know,
765
00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:47.020
like how can I be honest and not piss people off or not get rejected?
766
00:43:47.020 --> 00:43:48.420
And how,
767
00:43:48.420 --> 00:43:52.340
how are you dealing with that and do you think I'm right in saying that
768
00:43:53.300 --> 00:43:57.500
religion kind of forced you to lie in some ways even though like religious or
769
00:43:57.620 --> 00:44:00.420
religious, like preaches not to lie, but you kind of had to.
770
00:44:01.350 --> 00:44:05.380
[Usman] It depends on what you're talking about, you know, like, um,
771
00:44:05.380 --> 00:44:10.260
like we were talking about like what happened in my previous like
772
00:44:10.260 --> 00:44:14.420
relationship where I lied about certain things and so that
773
00:44:15.840 --> 00:44:19.950
in that sort of a setting you kind of lie to
774
00:44:20.750 --> 00:44:24.830
preserve certain things and uh, it's kind of a,
775
00:44:25.410 --> 00:44:28.420
I don't know if I would say it's from the religion perspective,
776
00:44:28.420 --> 00:44:33.080
but growing up I did lie just because it would save face from when I like my
777
00:44:33.080 --> 00:44:36.560
parents and make things quite a bit easier growing up. Uh,
778
00:44:36.560 --> 00:44:39.000
and you kind of get comfortable with the idea, uh,
779
00:44:39.080 --> 00:44:43.840
you'd rather not upset your parents than being honest
780
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.520
with them about what you're doing and what you think.
781
00:44:46.820 --> 00:44:51.480
Cuz that would hurt them way more cuz there's nothing you can do to change like
782
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:54.520
what you feel or what you think. Um, and yeah,
783
00:44:54.520 --> 00:44:59.040
it did stem into my personal life as well and there's no room for that like I
784
00:44:59.040 --> 00:44:59.780
would agree with.
785
00:44:59.780 --> 00:45:04.140
And it was more of a like in a more of like a fear-based thing,
786
00:45:04.140 --> 00:45:06.940
like I lied from. But growing up in a culture,
787
00:45:07.070 --> 00:45:11.100
growing up in a culture that's so different from the one that you're, uh,
788
00:45:11.100 --> 00:45:15.940
raised and sorry you're going to school with it does kind of force you to play
789
00:45:15.940 --> 00:45:19.820
like two lives in where you kind of keep things a secret and you kind of lie
790
00:45:19.820 --> 00:45:22.380
about certain things to be able to partake in another.
791
00:45:22.600 --> 00:45:26.900
Cuz if you're honest at home, you're not gonna be able to have the ability to,
792
00:45:27.350 --> 00:45:32.340
to to live your life the way you want to when you're outside of a
793
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:33.660
house. And so yeah,
794
00:45:33.660 --> 00:45:37.500
it's definitely a tricky balance that I know a lot of people from my culture
795
00:45:37.500 --> 00:45:41.980
have to do at home and it gets you comfortable with the idea of mine and which
796
00:45:41.980 --> 00:45:44.060
it, it's not a good thing I learned.
797
00:45:44.500 --> 00:45:49.100
[Nolan] [laughter] . Yeah. And yeah. Well you, you mentioned a good term there too,
798
00:45:49.100 --> 00:45:50.260
saving face. And I,
799
00:45:50.260 --> 00:45:53.780
it kind of makes me want to take back what I said two minutes ago by saying, oh,
800
00:45:53.780 --> 00:45:54.940
like you were kind of a liar,
801
00:45:54.940 --> 00:45:59.580
but maybe that's me being a westerner and saying that because
802
00:46:00.050 --> 00:46:02.500
like I know you're an honest person. We've,
803
00:46:02.500 --> 00:46:04.620
I've had many experiences with you to know,
804
00:46:04.620 --> 00:46:08.220
like I know who you are at your core and I know that you're an honest man and I
805
00:46:08.220 --> 00:46:10.300
know like you don't lie in most situations,
806
00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:15.540
but you do have to save face and that's a little bit more of like an eastern
807
00:46:15.540 --> 00:46:16.300
principle, right?
808
00:46:16.300 --> 00:46:21.180
It's like this saving face and in the west we don't have
809
00:46:21.180 --> 00:46:22.013
that as much.
810
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:25.070
[Usman] It's true. And so like it's,
811
00:46:25.070 --> 00:46:27.310
it's one thing to be called like a liar through and through,
812
00:46:27.490 --> 00:46:29.310
but then I think a little bit more accurate.
813
00:46:29.310 --> 00:46:31.390
Is there certain things that you don't wanna be truthful about?
814
00:46:31.390 --> 00:46:36.270
And then I feel like in the West, like people, they, they,
815
00:46:36.270 --> 00:46:39.030
they want you to be truthful like through and through about everything.
816
00:46:39.050 --> 00:46:41.390
And then in our culture it's like, you know what,
817
00:46:41.390 --> 00:46:45.070
some of that just isn't your business [laughter] . And so, uh,
818
00:46:45.070 --> 00:46:48.350
like one thing I noticed that from like some of my friends that are um,
819
00:46:48.450 --> 00:46:49.870
not white from a different culture,
820
00:46:49.870 --> 00:46:54.270
when you explain the like yeah thing did tell people certain things. Like if,
821
00:46:54.270 --> 00:46:57.030
if I'm honest with them about certain things you need to tell me about that it's
822
00:46:57.030 --> 00:46:59.390
not of my business. Cause my white friends would be like, oh,
823
00:46:59.390 --> 00:47:02.190
you need to tell us like all how come you weren't truthful with us?
824
00:47:02.190 --> 00:47:04.550
They're like, yeah, like I wouldn't have told you either.
825
00:47:04.550 --> 00:47:09.150
Like that's not a big deal. And so it's like, it's one thing to,
826
00:47:09.150 --> 00:47:11.030
I think a lot of people on like my culture,
827
00:47:11.030 --> 00:47:15.070
our culture kind of understand when you don't wanna tell things and you lie
828
00:47:15.070 --> 00:47:17.630
about certain things. Cuz they would do the same thing in our shoes.
829
00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:20.110
Whereas I think, uh,
830
00:47:20.850 --> 00:47:25.130
White folks were a little bit more taken back when I wasn't fully honest
831
00:47:25.540 --> 00:47:28.770
or when I'm not fully truthful about everything. Um,
832
00:47:28.770 --> 00:47:33.630
but in the end I realized that like either or it's better to be upfront when
833
00:47:33.630 --> 00:47:37.630
you're asked a question or just not answer it if you don't want to answer it
834
00:47:37.630 --> 00:47:40.950
rather than lie about it, which is a little bit different from what I was doing.
835
00:47:40.950 --> 00:47:41.783
Right?
836
00:47:42.030 --> 00:47:45.560
[Nolan] Yeah. Yeah. Now, um,
837
00:47:45.560 --> 00:47:47.560
just to not make this too personable to tie in,
838
00:47:47.740 --> 00:47:52.360
tie in like the honesty and everything and with relationships, um,
839
00:47:54.210 --> 00:47:58.980
nowadays we have such a focus in the West on like love marriages,
840
00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:00.260
right? Um,
841
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:04.540
but if you look at a lot of statistics arranged marriages,
842
00:48:05.050 --> 00:48:05.700
I don't know what,
843
00:48:05.700 --> 00:48:08.340
I think it's like 20 years down the road or even 10 years down the road,
844
00:48:08.570 --> 00:48:12.700
they usually report, um, higher happiness together,
845
00:48:12.700 --> 00:48:14.940
a better satisfaction as a couple.
846
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:19.580
Now that doesn't mean that arranged marriages mean that you're going to be
847
00:48:19.580 --> 00:48:20.420
happier in the end.
848
00:48:20.420 --> 00:48:25.340
Of course that could also be the fact that they come from a similar culture. Um,
849
00:48:25.340 --> 00:48:28.700
they have a similar socioeconomic background a lot of the time because if you're
850
00:48:28.700 --> 00:48:29.700
in arranged marriages,
851
00:48:29.700 --> 00:48:34.180
you're not going to be marrying outside of the socioeconomic status that your
852
00:48:34.180 --> 00:48:39.100
family's from. So there could be a lot of variables there of course. Right. Um,
853
00:48:40.040 --> 00:48:43.880
but how do you feel about it now? Like do you,
854
00:48:44.130 --> 00:48:47.440
do you think there's some benefit in arranged marriages or do you think
855
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:52.380
[Usman] Definitely, I think there's some benefits to arrange marriages.
856
00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:56.620
So like I was in a pretty long relationship before and I think
857
00:48:57.680 --> 00:49:00.100
the, there's pros and cons to either or,
858
00:49:00.100 --> 00:49:03.500
but when it comes to marriages and like grazing Ians,
859
00:49:03.890 --> 00:49:05.940
I think that it's probably,
860
00:49:06.550 --> 00:49:10.740
if you come from a similar socioeconomic background and similar
861
00:49:10.940 --> 00:49:14.380
upbringings in your, um, like similar mindset temperament,
862
00:49:14.810 --> 00:49:19.180
I think that an arranged marriage can get pretty close to like
863
00:49:19.940 --> 00:49:24.570
finding someone that you'll jive with for the rest of your life.
864
00:49:24.830 --> 00:49:26.370
And then once you're in arranged marriage,
865
00:49:26.370 --> 00:49:29.650
you kind of feel like you kind of have to stay in it and you kind of build that
866
00:49:29.650 --> 00:49:33.530
love rather than the other way around was right where you start off with love
867
00:49:33.530 --> 00:49:37.690
and passion and then you sort of pick up the actual blocks and you make sure
868
00:49:37.690 --> 00:49:42.610
that they're kind of aligned in a way where you can have a long-term future or,
869
00:49:42.610 --> 00:49:44.610
or as arranged marriages it's the reverse.
870
00:49:44.990 --> 00:49:49.930
And it might be easier to work on love than it is to work on those actual
871
00:49:49.930 --> 00:49:50.763
bigger blocks.
872
00:49:51.160 --> 00:49:51.680
[Nolan] Yeah.
873
00:49:51.680 --> 00:49:55.610
[Usman] I know it's kind of crazy to say, um, especially in our culture,
874
00:49:55.670 --> 00:49:57.700
but like, I mean, I don't know,
875
00:49:57.700 --> 00:50:00.860
like you pick someone who you find attractive from a similar background,
876
00:50:01.200 --> 00:50:03.580
you can't figure out love. Like, come on [laughter] .
877
00:50:04.090 --> 00:50:08.380
[Nolan] Yeah. Well there, there, there's this quote from this woman, uh,
878
00:50:08.380 --> 00:50:13.220
I don't even think, I think it was anonymous, but [laughter] she mentioned that,
879
00:50:13.550 --> 00:50:17.740
um, getting a husband is not so different from getting a new puppy.
880
00:50:18.180 --> 00:50:20.820
[laughter] at first. [laughter] at first.
881
00:50:20.820 --> 00:50:23.940
You haven't developed the feelings of love for it yet [laughter] ,
882
00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:28.280
but expect that you will come to love the puppy one day and invariability
883
00:50:28.280 --> 00:50:30.160
invariably you do [laughter] .
884
00:50:30.590 --> 00:50:34.920
[Usman] That's exactly true. I feel like that's the case. I mean, what's to say,
885
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:35.800
especially after you,
886
00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.880
like say you're with a relationship and it falls apart and you find a new one.
887
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:41.200
Like, what's that to say? You,
888
00:50:41.470 --> 00:50:44.840
it's the same sort of thing where you just build a new relationship from the
889
00:50:44.840 --> 00:50:48.040
scratch up and the ground up with somebody else.
890
00:50:48.040 --> 00:50:50.000
That's exactly true. Then I, I mean,
891
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:51.920
I would never have thought that way when I was younger,
892
00:50:51.970 --> 00:50:55.800
in late teens when the arranged marriages, the possibilities.
893
00:50:56.140 --> 00:50:58.840
But like now I was like, yeah, you know what, that kind of makes a lot of sense.
894
00:50:59.120 --> 00:51:01.320
[Nolan] [laughter] . And, and people sometimes forget that in the West,
895
00:51:01.320 --> 00:51:03.120
it wasn't that long ago either,
896
00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:07.640
that people didn't always marry out of love. And in fact,
897
00:51:07.640 --> 00:51:11.240
like you always hear about like women being the ones who want everything
898
00:51:11.560 --> 00:51:16.320
romantic and have the love marriages. But in was like 1967,
899
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:20.400
they did a survey with American college students and
900
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:25.120
65% of men, but only 24% of women,
901
00:51:25.930 --> 00:51:30.240
um, said they would marry someone, uh, they did not love
902
00:51:32.210 --> 00:51:36.080
or, uh, uh, wouldn't, wouldn't mar would not marry someone they did not love.
903
00:51:36.410 --> 00:51:37.640
So even back then,
904
00:51:37.640 --> 00:51:41.080
it was like men were more likely to like look for a love marriages,
905
00:51:41.080 --> 00:51:43.160
and though women were more likely like, okay, who,
906
00:51:43.160 --> 00:51:47.120
who am I just compatible with? Who's gonna give me stability? Uh,
907
00:51:47.850 --> 00:51:50.440
so, uh, it's kind of interesting, I think.
908
00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:52.640
[Usman] Man. Absolutely. Like now in today's culture,
909
00:51:52.640 --> 00:51:56.760
like when you look at like the Bachelor in the Bachelor in Paradise, so leather,
910
00:51:56.760 --> 00:52:01.680
like it's infatuation with like love and like passion and like that all
911
00:52:01.680 --> 00:52:05.640
eventually fades away and comes down to more of like what you want to do with
912
00:52:05.640 --> 00:52:08.400
your future. But, uh, yeah man, I, uh.
913
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:11.400
[Nolan] On the flip side, you do love Ed Sheeran lyrics and then
914
00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:13.720
[Usman] I do love, I'm a big yeah. Heart. Let's not,
915
00:52:13.720 --> 00:52:15.520
I'm not too pragmatic when I come to that.
916
00:52:15.520 --> 00:52:15.720
Kind.
917
00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:19.360
Of stuff. Yeah. [laughter] Well, man, I'm sorry buddy. I got a,
918
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:22.080
I got a meeting coming up here at work though, so I gotta.
919
00:52:22.080 --> 00:52:26.600
[Nolan] Let you, sounds good, man. Okay. Thanks so much for coming on the show, Usman.
920
00:52:26.600 --> 00:52:29.200
I love you man. And, um, hopefully,
921
00:52:29.200 --> 00:52:31.240
we'll you'll come back on the show some other time.
922
00:52:31.240 --> 00:52:32.880
Obviously there's lots to talk about.
923
00:52:33.020 --> 00:52:36.720
[Usman] Man. We have, uh, another slate of ideas that we can go through.
924
00:52:36.720 --> 00:52:39.880
Maybe we'll get my, the okay from me first [laughter] and we'll,
925
00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:41.600
we'll put another longer podcast.
926
00:52:42.200 --> 00:52:46.600
[Nolan] [laughter] Sounds good. All right, so this was Without Borders.
927
00:52:46.630 --> 00:52:51.560
Please check out www.without borders.fyi to
928
00:52:51.560 --> 00:52:53.840
support this show. And tune in next time.
929
00:52:54.590 --> 00:52:56.000
[Usman] Love you man. Thanks for having me.